Yesterday - Bundy Ranch

[Dr. Jones]

Will you require passport and visa?

Only ones sketched on barnaps.

 

[ema]

Only ones sketched on barnaps.

Nice, mines are ready then. Always wanted to live on an island.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

This topic got me thinking about a few things, and brought up a few questions.


Is the government here to serve the people, or the people here to serve the government?

Does the government derive it's power from the people, or some other source?

At what point is it ok for the people to stand up against their own government?

What does it take to break the spell of apathy that has blanketed a nation's citizens?

Sometimes it seems to me that our government is putting into practice the "how do you boil a frog" and the "how do you eat an elephant" questions.
Turning the head up little by little, or taking one bite at a time for a long period of time... out of it's citizens.

Am I wrong? What would be the signs of this to see it happening if it were?


There is a time to unite and make a stand. Maybe for these ranchers now is that time for them. Enough is enough, maybe they believe in their country and in the people around them. It's not always a bad thing to make a stand against your government to get them to change. It can be and in many cases is, but is not always the case.

The question is, when is the right time, and what makes it ok?

I think I see what PKM is saying, and think it's good to see people stand up for what they feel is right even if it's against their government and even if others think they are in the wrong. There is rarely a perfect and obvious time to stand up for something where all will see it your way. It doesn't mean you are what some of the people in this thread have called the Bundys or their supporters, it could just mean others don't get the full picture or haven't seen all you've seen. Honestly I would prefer to be around people willing to stand up for something as opposed to people not willing to get up off of their butts because they are too busy with whatever entertainment or whatever to care about what goes on in the world around them. Like PKM said, it's not a right or wrong issue, it's something else.

 

[Qman]

Wow you been drinking PKM? Nice to allow others to have a difference of opinion. While you might not have said the actual words, your support for the Bundy's side certainly says volumes about your position. The name calling simply makes me think we've touched a nerve besides making you sound like one of those dumb *** teabagger racists who continuously them talk about how they've lost all these freedoms since their is a black man in the white house and since they are the real americans they are going to stand up to this oppressive administration....******** while going around and threatening to over throw the gov't because they don't get their way. See it is easy to call other people names but I guess that is what you have to do when you are wrong.

The only reason why the gov't made a big deal about it was because a bunch of redneck anti-government people showed up with guns crying about their civil liberties being taken away when all the evidence showed they were breaking the law. If the Bundies had either stopped using the land or payed the permit fees nothing would have happened. The victim card gets really old when you aren't the victim. This is the last I will say on this issue too unless you want to continue it.

Have a nice day.
signed old liberal generation member.

Apparently the contention is that BLM is infact a bad organization- why does the federal government need to own all this land?

Or all laws moral and just? Just because something is the law right now doesn't mean it is right. You may or may not be aware many people believe that the states should managing/owning government land.

 

[Stoked]

Apparently the contention is that BLM is infact a bad organization- why does the federal government need to own all this land?

Or all laws moral and just? Just because something is the law right now doesn't mean it is right. You may or may not be aware many people believe that the states should managing/owning government land.

I VERY much agree with this.

Also, not directed at you Qman, this protest is not in the face of "the voters". It is support by a large, and increasing section of the populace. So at best it is in the face of some voters.

 

[PearlWatson]

Basically, a bunch of people thought the government was out of control and were protesting the bank bailouts. The feds sent in the army to ensure peace was kept and blocked off sections of the city. The mob thought this was a violation of their freedom of speech and rioted.

The right, by and large, condemned the protestors because they were taking a mentality. Militia members did not show up to support this freedom movement.

As an afterthought, the difference between the right and left truly does boil down to the fact that we have guns and they do not. Both sides were fighting the same fight though (big business and government are out of control).

They weren't protesting against "the government" they were protesting against "the rich."
It wasn't government vs. citizens. It was 1%ers vs. 99%ers.

 

[UGLI baby]

Basically, a bunch of people thought the government was out of control and were protesting the bank bailouts. The feds sent in the army to ensure peace was kept and blocked off sections of the city. The mob thought this was a violation of their freedom of speech and rioted.

The right, by and large, condemned the protestors because they were taking a leftist mentality. Militia members did not show up to support this freedom movement.

As an afterthought, the difference between the right and left truly does boil down to the fact that we have guns and they do not. Both sides were fighting the same fight though (big business and government are out of control).

The big difference is that, right or wrong, people see the bundy situation as an honest, hard working man who is having his livelyhood threatened, and the occupy movement as a bunch of hippy tree huggers looking to protest because they don't really have much else to do anyways.

Not saying either are true, but I think that's the perception most people have.

Also, that is indeed my perception of both, so yeah, it prolly is actually true.

£¥£

 

[franklin]

Are you on the right??

I'm always on the right.

I'm pragmatic and don't view politics like most seem to. I see things on a continuum and reserve the right to change my vote with a changing situation. The constant drum beating without modifying to a changing world from the right and the left drives me insane, as does the insistence from both sides that life is terrible and all is lost in the world. I hear republicans (because that's what I'm surrounded by) say they aren't a member of either party, down with both of them, blah blah, but the truth is they are republicans through and through, and refuse to question their own inside the box agendas.

Outside the extremes, I see merit and sympathize with just about every p.o.v., and consider them all valid input. There currently is no side for us the-truth-is-somewhere-in-the-middle type.

 

[PearlWatson]

So basically, Bundy's forefathers used our lands free of charge for decades and now want to tell us it's their land because we gave them charity? It's like me saying my family has hunted or trapped on a certain piece of land for a century so I own it and the Fed Commies need to give it to me. Where's my Gordon Damned Texas flag to wave?

No, from what I gather he paid "Clark County" until BLM came in and said they could break the terms of the "lease" and that Bundy had to pay them instead.

 

[PearlWatson]

I'm always on the right.

I'm pragmatic and don't view politics like most seem to. I see things on a continuum and reserve the right to change my vote with a changing situation. The constant drum beating without modifying to a changing world from the right and the left drives me insane, as does the insistence from both sides that life is terrible and all is lost in the world. I hear republicans (because that's what I'm surrounded by) say they aren't a member of either party, down with both of them, blah blah, but the truth is they are republicans through and through, and refuse to question their own inside the box agendas.

Outside the extremes, I see merit and sympathize with just about every p.o.v., and consider them all valid input. There currently is no side for us the-truth-is-somewhere-in-the-middle type.

definition of unprincipled

 

[franklin]

This topic got me thinking about a few things, and brought up a few questions.


Is the government here to serve the people, or the people here to serve the government?

Does the government derive it's power from the people, or some other source?

At what point is it ok for the people to stand up against their own government?

What does it take to break the spell of apathy that has blanketed a nation's citizens?

Sometimes it seems to me that our government is putting into practice the "how do you boil a frog" and the "how do you eat an elephant" questions.
Turning the head up little by little, or taking one bite at a time for a long period of time... out of it's citizens.

Am I wrong? What would be the signs of this to see it happening if it were?


There is a time to unite and make a stand. Maybe for these ranchers now is that time for them. Enough is enough, maybe they believe in their country and in the people around them. It's not always a bad thing to make a stand against your government to get them to change. It can be and in many cases is, but is not always the case.

The question is, when is the right time, and what makes it ok?

I think I see what PKM is saying, and think it's good to see people stand up for what they feel is right even if it's against their government and even if others think they are in the wrong. There is rarely a perfect and obvious time to stand up for something where all will see it your way. It doesn't mean you are what some of the people in this thread have called the Bundys or their supporters, it could just mean others don't get the full picture or haven't seen all you've seen. Honestly I would prefer to be around people willing to stand up for something as opposed to people not willing to get up off of their butts because they are too busy with whatever entertainment or whatever to care about what goes on in the world around them. Like PKM said, it's not a right or wrong issue, it's something else.

The problem IMO is gerrymandering has made districts uncontestable to the other side. The only way to win a conservative district is to out right-wing the money bags incumbent; ditto for the left hand side. This has entrenched and compounded our problems as we have few swing voters left like the Blue Dog Democrats. Every moderate republican is a RINO and gets attacked by her own party's pit bulls with weaponized ears. Every independent runs out of funds. Every non-ultra liberal is a child starving, big business humping Satanist.

This is why my current philosophy is "vote opposite". I scratch straight democrat in the voting booth, even though most the democratic candidates in Utah are complete tools who make my ears bleed. I should make a youtube video and get rich by starting this movement...

 

[franklin]

definition of unprincipled

Your definition of principles is worshipping a false utopia while staring down your nose at anyone who holds a smidgen of values. Pretty sure God will send you to the deepest part of hell. Happy burnings.