******* dads.

[Ron Mexico]

"Real" is not an objective adjective when humans process information through a human brain and superimpose their notion of good values on everything. So, we can have our own definitions of "real", if we like. Or, we can understand others for what they mean, if we like.

What I am using as the concept behind my term "real" involves objective outcomes from behavior based on choices, purposes, and changes in the world resulting from our actions. In my view, a "marriage" that produces no children might not be a "real" marriage if the output, or product of the operation, cannot be objectively demonstrated.

I realize that in the world of human imagination, particularly chemical-assisted imagination, the transient feelings might be viewed as the relevant "product" and therefore be considered "real", but since you have no objectively demonstrable outcome to prove things otherwise, I can blithely ignore your claim as merely your own imagination. . . . .

Your "real" joy that requires the world to change can still be enhanced by chemicals and give you the ability to change the world, which is the only way those things are done. Chemicals in your head, which differ from chemicals in someone else's head, allow, motivate and give you perception to be able to change the world. Allowing outside chemicals to change those things can give you the ability, which you might not posses, to follow through with behaviors as well as enhance the amount you get out of them. I would give a few examples but seems like a pointless argument since almost every accomplishment can be attributed to chemicals in some way.

I understand that the term "real" is subjective to the individual and you certainly have a different definition of real joy than I do. I also find your definition to be sad, that joy is only objective for you. I find very real joy in everything around me and certainly don't require the world to change (which is also a subjective idea) to find real joy in it. So, yes I understand how you define the difference between real joy and joy but find it a silly distinguish that causes confusion and pain in people.

But I will say that someone who is not around or has not experienced external chemicals simply has no "real" view or important input into an argument about it. I also find it untrue that certain chemicals that are legal are good and helpful and illegal ones don't allow positive changes in ones life.

 

[bigb]

Yup. I'm trying (probably poorly) to teach them that every choice has a consequence and that they need to own up to the consequences. If they don't like the consequence, then they should re-evaluate their choices.

My kid the other night mouthed off and lost play station. He asked me why I took his play station away. I explained to him that I didn't take away his play station. He had a choice to make and the choice he made led to the play station being shelved. We talked about his choices and what he wanted and what he should do next time to get what he wants.

Hopefully that thought process sinks in someday...

I don't know how old your kid is, but I've started to see the progress in my oldest two. My 7 year old son used to slam the door after he'd stomped down the hallway, kicking/hitting whatever was in his path whenever he got sent to his room. I would sit him down and talk to him. He would always say we'd "made him mad". I explained that he alone was responsible for his own actions and reactions, and the way he was reacting to his punishment didn't work and would only lead to more discipline. It's taken a little bit of time and extra discipline, but now he's down to only stomping down the hallway. No slamming of the door or kicking things/people on his way. I can live with a little stomping.

 

[babe]

Real joy and joy are the same thing. There is no such thing as fake joy. That seems to be some weird mormon culture thing.

I dont advocate illegal drug use but for someone who has not been around them or dealt with them in any positive situation to say they are all bad and terrible seems silly to me.

yah, there is "fake" joy. Rumor has it some women fake "joy".

So here is a short story about joy.

Once in my life I couldn't sleep for three days. I had discovered something in my lab work that really got me pumped up high, no not a new chemical, just the success of a project resulting in a new bit of knowledge and technology. I couldn't quit my work for three days to go home and sleep. I did go to the toilet a couple of times. If you ever experience joy like that, I'm sure your sort of "joy" will pale in comparison.

 

[Beer]

yah, there is "fake" joy. Rumor has it some women fake "joy".

So here is a short story about joy.

Once in my life I couldn't sleep for three days. I had discovered something in my lab work that really got me pumped up high, no not a new chemical, just the success of a project resulting in a new bit of knowledge and technology. I couldn't quit my work for three days to go home and sleep. I did go to the toilet a couple of times. If you ever experience joy like that, I'm sure your sort of "joy" will pale in comparison.

Wait are you a farmer or a scientist? For some reason I thought you were some dairy farming redneck from Logan. I legitimately think that and I'm not sure why.

 

[babe]

Wait are you a farmer or a scientist? For some reason I thought you were some dairy farming redneck from Logan. I legitimately think that and I'm not sure why.

I do have a farm, which is my main source of income. I used to have jobs in chemical industry, and as a consultant. Prior to that, I did research at the University of Utah, in the Chemistry Department in a theoretical cancer project aimed at developing new chemotherapeutic agents. I had my arms in the sink up to my elbows in 5_FU. No that's not cuss lingo, it's a nucleoside derivative used today in cancer treatments. And, later, in Biochemistry, and Pathology, where my work was with various proteins including cellular receptors and immunology. I pursue hobby interests in health and natural resources. Water, dirt, and mining. The dreams of the everyday farmer. . . .strike it rich and retire to the little idyllic farm. . . .

 

[Ron Mexico]

yah, there is "fake" joy. Rumor has it some women fake "joy".

So here is a short story about joy.

Once in my life I couldn't sleep for three days. I had discovered something in my lab work that really got me pumped up high, no not a new chemical, just the success of a project resulting in a new bit of knowledge and technology. I couldn't quit my work for three days to go home and sleep. I did go to the toilet a couple of times. If you ever experience joy like that, I'm sure your sort of "joy" will pale in comparison.

lol, I am sure your joy is much better than mine.

I love my work everyday. I would and do go to work for free and have taken a significant pay cut over the years to switch careers, also loved my post graduate degree work, and still help out with some research since I enjoy it. I dont struggle to sleep most nights though, since I am consistently pretty damn happy all day. I dont have an endorphin, serotonin/other chemical rush that keeps me up for days on end since I rarely dont have a really awesome day. Love my life, wife, friends work and me.

But since you bring up the "staying up for days without being able to control mood, sleep, pain, appetite" argument I think lots of people who do drugs stay up for days on an serotonin/dopamine high that doesnt allow them to control their mood, sleep, pain or appetite. I think that is the reason most people get addicted to drugs.

I dont really do "drugs" these days since they are illegal and in my case dont really feel desire to do them right now. If they were legal there are a few I would do every now and then but it would be pretty rare. That doesnt mean I judge others who do them regularly and seem to have really awesome lives as well.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yup. I'm trying (probably poorly) to teach them that every choice has a consequence and that they need to own up to the consequences. If they don't like the consequence, then they should re-evaluate their choices.

My kid the other night mouthed off and lost play station. He asked me why I took his play station away. I explained to him that I didn't take away his play station. He had a choice to make and the choice he made led to the play station being shelved. We talked about his choices and what he wanted and what he should do next time to get what he wants.

Hopefully that thought process sinks in someday...

Well done.

Can I have his PlayStation?

 

[fishonjazz]

Wait are you a farmer or a scientist? For some reason I thought you were some dairy farming redneck from Logan. I legitimately think that and I'm not sure why.

Truck driver I think

 

[fishonjazz]

I just want to address something real quick. Babe seems to be under the impression that I'm some kind of druggie. Babe, I'm a working man. The jobs I get you have to pass a drug test for. And, if I'm at work and cut my finger I get drug tested on the spot, or if I knock over some boxes and hurt someone else or damage company property, I get a drug test on the spot. I'm okay with that because I'll pass.

I spent six years in the Navy without being subject to a single disciplinary action. I was drug tested at least 10 times in my six years of Navy service. I passed those tests, every time.

I've talked about drug stuff that took place from about 1992-1998. And during that time I did a lot less drugs than most of the people I hung out with. I was never all that into it. Was usually pretty hesitant to put something into my body unless I was sure what it was. As mentioned, I've never done coke even though it's been offered to me many times. Never done ecstasy, would never do it. I drifted away from my high school friends as they started doing meth and I wasn't into it (probably the best decision I ever made). I've really done very few drugs all things considered. I'm not a druggie.

Please don't be so simple as to think that my opposition to the war on drugs is so that I can do a bunch of drugs. The war on drugs has been an enormous tragedy. Even though it really doesn't affect people like me and doesn't affect me specifically very much at all, I can see the harm it does to society overall and the lives it has destroyed that didn't need to be destroyed, whose destruction has served no positive purpose.

A. When it comes to drugs babe is a dumbass
B. Please don't care what babe thinks about you..... and you shouldn't have to explain yourself or your situation to someone so ignorant and clearly biased/prejudiced toward a group of people that he knows nothing about

 

[Dr. Jones]

I have tried LSD or Shrooms maybe 5 times in total. 3 of those times I had a horrible time. One of the times I was feeling good and having fun my best friend went into cardiac arrest (intentionally ****ed up acid from a kid our group of friends had a major falling out with and apparently he tried to kill us. 11 of the 13 kids who took the acid went to the ER that night. My friend got it the worst and I basically had the best experience on LSD I ever had up until it was clear he was in trouble). I tend to get massive stomach cramps and feel like I've got a 20lb turd stuck in my guts. I also tend to get very anxious and frustrated. Hallucinogenics just don't agree with me at all.

Dude.. Hats off for having tried both LSD and LDS. Thankful to be alive, I'm sure.

 

[Gameface]

A. When it comes to drugs babe is a dumbass
B. Please don't care what babe thinks about you..... and you shouldn't have to explain yourself or your situation to someone so ignorant and clearly biased/prejudiced toward a group of people that he knows nothing about

Yeah, you're right.

 

[green]

I don't know how old your kid is, but I've started to see the progress in my oldest two. My 7 year old son used to slam the door after he'd stomped down the hallway, kicking/hitting whatever was in his path whenever he got sent to his room. I would sit him down and talk to him. He would always say we'd "made him mad". I explained that he alone was responsible for his own actions and reactions, and the way he was reacting to his punishment didn't work and would only lead to more discipline. It's taken a little bit of time and extra discipline, but now he's down to only stomping down the hallway. No slamming of the door or kicking things/people on his way. I can live with a little stomping.

Thanks for sharing. Gives me hope.