LDS General Conference Fall 2015

[RandyForRubio]

So I'm assuming all those disagreeing with the moves don't believe these apostles were divinely chosen? Or are apostles divinely chosen? I'm not very familiar with the process. Thanks.

 

[NAOS]

So I'm assuming all those disagreeing with the moves don't believe these apostles were divinely chosen? Or are apostles divinely chosen? I'm not very familiar with the process. Thanks.

dude. Why? Why are you in here doing this?^

That's an honest, sincere question.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

So I'm assuming all those disagreeing with the moves don't believe these apostles were divinely chosen? Or are apostles divinely chosen? I'm not very familiar with the process. Thanks.

There is not only one reason to question a decision. It could be they don't believe they are divinely chosen. Yes, they are chosen through inspiration. They could also only be looking at it from a world view of they wish for appearances sake that there was racial diversity in the quorum of the 12. There is racial diversity in the Quorum of the Seventy, as well as part of the Presidency of the Seventy and Presiding Bishopric.

Without really digging into it it seems to me between 30-40% of the Quorum of the Seventy are not white, the majority of the non-white members of the quorum being of Latin descent.

Anyone interested can use this link to do your own figuring.

LDS Church Quorum of the Seventy

 

[b_line]

So I'm assuming all those disagreeing with the moves don't believe these apostles were divinely chosen? Or are apostles divinely chosen? I'm not very familiar with the process. Thanks.

Only a sith deals in absolutes. Are all Christians who are not Mormon siths?

#logic

 

[♪alt13]

On the one hand, as an active member who has all sorts of issues with the culture within the church, I'm a little insulted at your generalization.

On the other, I'm not particularly mystified that you would see it that way.

While the church has taken some small steps of late to foster tolerance and inclusion, it's lost on a large segment of the membership who have been conditioned, over generations, to think in an exclusive fashion. It's particularly pronounced in Utah, where being a mormon doesn't put you in the minority.

As far as American Christians go I don't think Mormons are particularly intolerant even Utahns. At worst they are on par with Christian communities you would find throughout the US. That's my experience anyway.

 

[b_line]

Racial diversity is not the only type of diversity out there. Lets not confuse racial diversity with diversity.

I also don't think the LDS Church is trying to keep up with times or what people in general want from them. The idea is to listen to inspiration from God and do what He would want done. If it was all about popularity and pleasing the people things would be much much different.

While racial diversity is not the only kind of diversity, it still does not make up for the fact that people if color in the lds church are lacking visible role models. If you are a white American or northern European male, you are extremely well represented with the church and, if you choose to believe, with God. These guys are going to think as a white upper class male first because that's what they are. No matter how hard they try to change, the fundamental difference is that they are not mexican, brazilian, Chinese or otherwise not white.

 

[RandyForRubio]

dude. Why? Why are you in here doing this?^

That's an honest, sincere question.

Why? Because I'm curious towards the physical process, as well as the thinking process that these different members have. I'm just trying to learn. I don't think I was being disrespectful, and tbh, I'll wait for somebody else other than you to tell me that I am.

Now a question for you. Why do you insist on following me around, attacking me when you're not adding anything to the conversation except an insult? And I'm not the only one you do it to. It gets old. You're better than that, you're obviously intelligent, so why do you do it? I don't want to ruin this thread any further, feel free to pm me if you want.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Only a sith deals in absolutes. Are all Christians who are not Mormon siths?

#logic

Drat. You're on to me. Prepare to die!

 

[NAOS]

Why? Because I'm curious towards the physical process, as well as the thinking process that these different members have. I'm just trying to learn.

Thanks for answering my question. Given your past behavior, I'm sure you can understand my curiosity.

I don't think I was being disrespectful, and tbh, I'll wait for somebody else other than you to tell me that I am.

Now a question for you. Why do you insist on following me around, attacking me when you're not adding anything to the conversation except an insult? And I'm not the only one you do it to. It gets old. You're better than that, you're obviously intelligent, so why do you do it? I don't want to ruin this thread any further, feel free to pm me if you want.

This was lol

 

[Jazz Spazz]

While racial diversity is not the only kind of diversity, it still does not make up for the fact that people if color in the lds church are lacking visible role models. If you are a white American or northern European male, you are extremely well represented with the church and, if you choose to believe, with God. These guys are going to think as a white upper class male first because that's what they are. No matter how hard they try to change, the fundamental difference is that they are not Mexican, Brazilian, Chinese or otherwise not white.

Is this a nature vs nurture argument? Elder Gong was born in California, is Asian, and is the newest member of the Presidency of the Seventy. Does being Asian make him more of a role model? I don't think so. I look up to people for much different reasons than race or ethnicity. Role models should be based on the character of the role model. I do get what you are saying, and there is a natural tendency to view people of our own race or ethnicity as a better role model. I don't think it's right but I understand the tendency to do so.

In opposition to the argument that the church is passing up an opportunity to put people of a certain race or role model into the Quorum of the Twelve based solely on that classification, I think people may be passing up an opportunity to see the people called for who they are and gain an understanding of why they were called... to gain a testimony of why they were called. The newest called members of the Twelve should not categorically be dismissed as the best people to be called because they are white in skin color.

 

[Stoked]

I'm just making sure I'm understanding what you guys are saying correctly. You think because a white dude who was born in Utah, grew up in Sweden and did some mission work in Baltimore and Africa, that that makes him "diverse?" You guys just don't get it and like many other white folks, probably never will. I don't say that as a pejorative but as a consequence of actions and words.


So, I listened to Mr. Uchtdorf's address earlier today. The first part did NOT really resonate with me but I really did like the second part. The phrasing he used, and I'm paraphrasing here, of "accepting where you're at or who you are instead of where you want to be or want to accomplish" was a great lesson and even though his interpretation dealt with being a good disciple and the core concept of simplification it still imparted a utilitarian wisdom that is often forgotten in our current consumerist/ always-on culture. Well, at least that's what I got out of it.

It makes him "more diverse" (worded that way on purpose)than living in SLC his whole life. Living in Sweden and Africa for half his life leads to new view points and exposure to new cultures.

But I feel I have been pretty clear in this thread (and other threads) that I am a proponent (the major one from what I have seen) of having non whites from other countries for real diversity. For example: I have called (in one of these threads) for s Central/South American Latino, a black man from Africa and an Asian (probably form the Philippines) to be the three that were chosen. But that didn't happen.

So as far as I go it is you who does not get it because you are to focused on us being white. Interesting how that works huh...

But at least Renlund isn't as (notice the word choice) cookie cutter as I thought. (my own uninformed assumption based on his skin tone and name)

 

[Stoked]

So I'm assuming all those disagreeing with the moves don't believe these apostles were divinely chosen? Or are apostles divinely chosen? I'm not very familiar with the process. Thanks.

Even given that assumption I see nothing wrong with someone left wondering and confused why something that makes sense to them didn't happen.

Faith does not equal perfect understanding. It does not mean you cannot be left wondering "why?"

 

[RandyForRubio]

Even given that assumption I see nothing wrong with someone left wondering and confused why something that makes sense to them didn't happen.

Faith does not equal perfect understanding. It does not mean you cannot be left wondering "why?"

Oh I completely agree. This whole thing is just very foreign to me, and I'm very intrigued by it. Thanks for your perspective.

 

[Stoked]

Oh I completely agree. This whole thing is just very foreign to me, and I'm very intrigued by it. Thanks for your perspective.

My perspective on this, from the active Mormons I deal with anyways, is kind of an outlier. A lot of them talk about being inquisitive and it being ok to question, not challenge mind you, but then fail to really do so.

They will ask "why" but not be interested in an answer since they feel the Lord decided so why think about it. It leads over time to being a poor, uninformed member. Imo at least.

 

[RandyForRubio]

My perspective on this, from the active Mormons I deal with anyways, is kind of an outlier. A lot of them talk about being inquisitive and it being ok to question, not challenge mind you, but then fail to really do so.

They will ask "why" but not be interested in an answer since they feel the Lord decided so why think about it. It leads over time to being a poor, uninformed member. Imo at least.

Oh it's not just a Mormon thing. It's a people thing. We don't want to question what we believe in, whether it be God, science or basketball.

 

[Stoked]

Oh it's not just a Mormon thing. It's a people thing. We don't want to question what we believe in, whether it be God, science or basketball.

Very true. But my main perspective is the Mormon church so I didn't want to say it is or isn't a problem in groups I have little to no working knowledge of.

Questioning does not have to mean challenging or rebellion. People have a hard time making that distinction.

 

[RJF]

Very true. But my main perspective is the Mormon church so I didn't want to say it is or isn't a problem in groups I have little to no working knowledge of.

Questioning does not have to mean challenging or rebellion. People have a hard time making that distinction.

In my experience, that is enough for members to effectively shun the questuioner. Its one of a handful of reasons I'm now only a member of record and in no way active today.

 

[Bronco70]

So I'm assuming all those disagreeing with the moves don't believe these apostles were divinely chosen? Or are apostles divinely chosen? I'm not very familiar with the process. Thanks.

Personally, I don't disagree, but I am disappointed. I do believe the choices were inspired, but not in the sense that God hand selected them. I don't know the protocol any better than you do, but my lifetime amongst mormons leads me to believe it is more like, the FP and Qot12 make some selections and run them by God. God gives his okay. IMO, most of the leadership and policy decisions are probably made this way.

But again, I don't know.

Also, I'm a pretty sketchy active mormon.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Very true. But my main perspective is the Mormon church so I didn't want to say it is or isn't a problem in groups I have little to no working knowledge of.

Questioning does not have to mean challenging or rebellion. People have a hard time making that distinction.

In my experience, that is enough for members to effectively shun the questuioner. Its one of a handful of reasons I'm now only a member of record and in no way active today.

It's a good point. Many people have a hard time with that for some reason. IMO, even if someone questions or challenges it's fine. How else are you to get to some solid footing and answers if you don't ask questions.
I think the key point should be that you are sincere and 100% open to whatever the answer is. Also families and friends should be more loving and patient with people that don't get the answer they want them to get.
The bottom line is to love and support each other, no matter what.

I know that's more of an ideal/utopia, but that's the goal even if it doesn't happen nearly as often as it should... but it does happen.

 

[Bronco70]

Very true. But my main perspective is the Mormon church so I didn't want to say it is or isn't a problem in groups I have little to no working knowledge of.

Questioning does not have to mean challenging or rebellion. People have a hard time making that distinction.

In my experience, that is enough for members to effectively shun the questuioner. Its one of a handful of reasons I'm now only a member of record and in no way active today.

When I say I have major issues with mormon culture, this is what I'm talking about.