Unions... Forced Dues???

[Gameface]

I just wanted to add something.
I noticed that GF was talking about the fact the union may have (and probably did) give up some things in the last negotiation due to the fact that they fought so hard to keep our pension. It seems that maybe he would have rather had a little bit bigger raise or something and maybe we give up the pension.

I think that the pension was fought for so ferociously because it is a bigger deal than people realize. I know that sometimes people think that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, meaning they would take the lesser reward now rather than wait for what might be a greater reward later.

If I retired today my pension would be about $400 per month.... If I retire at 65 my pension would be over $2000 per month (according the calculator from my retirement firms website).
That is pretty damn fantastic. $2000 per month plus my 401K (The union negotiated a higher match from the company on the 401K also), plus social security (if there is any) is pretty decent income for when I'm an old(er) dude.
Take away that $2000 and I'm going to be struggling.

There is a reason that allot of companies have stopped giving their employees pensions.... They are a great benefit for the employee and expensive for the company to pay so most companies want to save that money and the American pensions are going away at a rapid rate. I'm thankful to still have one.

Carrying a pension is a significant motivation to shut down a plant that has one in order to open a plant somewhere else that doesn't. It's a good deal for the employee, sure. But it's an enormous burden for the company. As I understand it, it isn't just the amount of money the company has to put into it up front, but managing it and budgeting for it long-term. A pension is an open-ended commitment that is hard for companies to deal with in a changing marketplace. My biggest fear with the pension is that it makes the plant we work at MUCH MUCH MUCH more expendable if the going gets really tough. What good is that pension going to be if the plant closes down? Also, what good is the pension if in a few years I find a better opportunity somewhere else that doesn't have a pension?

 

[fishonjazz]

Carrying a pension is a significant motivation to shut down a plant that has one in order to open a plant somewhere else that doesn't. It's a good deal for the employee, sure. But it's an enormous burden for the company. As I understand it, it isn't just the amount of money the company has to put into it up front, but managing it and budgeting for it long-term. A pension is an open-ended commitment that is hard for companies to deal with in a changing marketplace. My biggest fear with the pension is that it makes the plant we work at MUCH MUCH MUCH more expendable if the going gets really tough. What good is that pension going to be if the plant closes down? Also, what good is the pension if in a few years I find a better opportunity somewhere else that doesn't have a pension?

You might be right, you might be wrong. I was simply saying that a pension is nothing to scoff at and is worth fighting for

 

[fishonjazz]

You seem to be ready and willing to simply give up your pension because of a fear, real or imagined, that you have of the pension taking down our plant and shutting it down.

I'm sure the company hopes all of its employees share your fear and give up our pensions

 

[fishonjazz]

Having said that, I would give up my pension in order to keep my job

 

[Gameface]

You seem to be ready and willing to simply give up your pension because of a fear, real or imagined, that you have of the pension taking down our plant and shutting it down.

I'm sure the company hopes all of its employees share your fear and give up our pensions

I'm just not sure that I'll be there until I retire. That's not the current reality in today's workforce. I might have two or three or four job changes between now and then. I might even have a career change or two between now and then. If rather put my money into a 401k that goes with me.

 

[Stoked]

I'm just not sure that I'll be there until I retire. That's not the current reality in today's workforce. I might have two or three or four job changes between now and then. I might even have a career change or two between now and then. If rather put my money into a 401k that goes with me.

You are right that it is the reality for a bunch of reasons. Not all of which you named. This is why you need to spread your eggs into as many baskets as possible. Investments, savings, IRAs, pensions, Social Security, 401ks, land/water/mineral rights, hard cash...

Pensions are worth fighting for as they are a very real tool in affording our twilight years.

 

[fishonjazz]

I'm just not sure that I'll be there until I retire. That's not the current reality in today's workforce. I might have two or three or four job changes between now and then. I might even have a career change or two between now and then. If rather put my money into a 401k that goes with me.

According to what I just read, you don't have to be there until you retire to take advantage of a pension:

"You're lucky enough to work for a company that provides a defined-benefit pension. But when you leave for another job, your company gives you a choice: take the pension benefit you've accrued to date in the form of a lump-sum today or wait to collect its monthly equivalent when you retire.
For instance, a woman in her early 30s is moving to a new job and was given the following choice from her current employer: take with her the $5,000 she's accrued in pension benefits so far or let the money stay in the pension plan and collect $170 a month for life when she retires in 33 years."

So if that's true and in that scenario her $170 per month for every month of her life after retirement was equal to a $5,000 lump sum, and my monthly amount at retirement is currently about $400 per month then the lump sum account must be pretty big!
This pension thing gets better and better the more I read about it. I'm glad we are having this discussion.

 

[Stoked]

According to what I just read, you don't have to be there until you retire to take advantage of a pension:

"You're lucky enough to work for a company that provides a defined-benefit pension. But when you leave for another job, your company gives you a choice: take the pension benefit you've accrued to date in the form of a lump-sum today or wait to collect its monthly equivalent when you retire.
For instance, a woman in her early 30s is moving to a new job and was given the following choice from her current employer: take with her the $5,000 she's accrued in pension benefits so far or let the money stay in the pension plan and collect $170 a month for life when she retires in 33 years."

So if that's true and in that scenario her $170 per month for every month of her life after retirement was equal to a $5,000 lump sum, and my monthly amount at retirement is currently about $400 per month then the lump sum account must be pretty big!
This pension thing gets better and better the more I read about it. I'm glad we are having this discussion.

Also you can become eligible for some pensions based on years of service and not age at "retirement". Such as 20 - 25 years in law enforcement. Then you can get your pension even if you're only 40. You draw that pension and hold another job. I see it all the time.

 

[fishonjazz]

Also you can become eligible for some pensions based on years of service and not age at "retirement". Such as 20 - 25 years in law enforcement. Then you can get your pension even if you're only 40. You draw that pension and hold another job. I see it all the time.

That would be bad ***

 

[Gameface]

Also you can become eligible for some pensions based on years of service and not age at "retirement". Such as 20 - 25 years in law enforcement. Then you can get your pension even if you're only 40. You draw that pension and hold another job. I see it all the time.

Yeah. Had I stayed in the Navy I would be 4 years away from a full pension. Ugh.

 

[Gameface]

Yeah. Had I stayed in the Navy I would be 4 years away from a full pension. Ugh.

And just to explain what that means, I would get 50% of my "high 3" meaning they would average the highest 3 years of salary and give me 50% of that per month for the rest of my life.

I was an E5 (second class petty officer) when I left the Navy after 6 years. I could have taken the test for, and maybe become, an E6 (first class petty officer) before I left, but I knew I was leaving so I didn't. Advancement beyond E6 is political and much more difficult, but I'm guessing I would probably have made chief (E7) by now. E7 might have been my ceiling, so I'll just assume my high-3 would have been at E7 pay. E7 at greater than 16 years is $4297.50 right now (that's base pay, and that's what the pension is based on. There are many allowances and other types of pay in the military, but that's besides the point). So in four years I'd be getting $2150-ish/month.

Man, I liked the Navy. Liked it more than anything I've done since. I'm a dumbass.

 

[fishonjazz]

And just to explain what that means, I would get 50% of my "high 3" meaning they would average the highest 3 years of salary and give me 50% of that per month for the rest of my life.

I was an E5 (second class petty officer) when I left the Navy after 6 years. I could have taken the test for, and maybe become, an E6 (first class petty officer) before I left, but I knew I was leaving so I didn't. Advancement beyond E6 is political and much more difficult, but I'm guessing I would probably have made chief (E7) by now. E7 might have been my ceiling, so I'll just assume my high-3 would have been at E7 pay. E7 at greater than 16 years is $4297.50 right now (that's base pay, and that's what the pension is based on. There are many allowances and other types of pay in the military, but that's besides the point). So in four years I'd be getting $2150-ish/month.

Man, I liked the Navy. Liked it more than anything I've done since. I'm a dumbass.

Wow. That would be pretty sweet dude.

Dumbass