The way to get a star

[idiot]

Step 1: trade Hayward and Favors to Lakers for #2 draft pick (or to Sixers if by some miracle they want to go that direction). Maybe we could even get Russell back if we threw in Mack and/or #12.

Step 2: draft Ingram (or Simmons if miracle happens).

Step 3: pray like you've never prayed before that Ingram turns into Kevin Durant. Hope that a new core of Exum, Hood, Ingram/Simmons, Lyles, Gobert gels and can be complemented with depth over the next three years (by the time this group should start to be hitting its stride).


The odds are against this working out. Only two (if Lamarcus Aldridge counts) out of the last 20 #2 picks look like they'll be fitting the category of the fabled superstar the Jazz lack (for first picks, it's more like 12 of 20). It's more likely to be a long-term step backward. But I'm intrigued enough with their potential that if the Jazz feel confident that Ingram/Simmons is likely to be a true star, I'd probably go along with the plan.

 

[Dr. Jones]

This thread is how you get a starZ
Grats.

 

[idiot]

Additional thoughts for those who care enough to read further:

Pros of the idea

1. I see no way the Jazz could get a star without giving up Hayward along with Favors or Gobert. The top tier of star will not even be on the market. But perhaps the two could fetch something on the level of a talented-with-baggage type of player or a player who's currently just a bit more productive than Hayward (Cousins, Butler, Harden, Lowry, etc.) -- but maybe that's not even enough. And I'm not convinced the overall return (along with the baggage) would be high enough to make trade worthwhile. So I think the draft is the only reasonable place to turn.

2. I think the Lakers (more than most any team) could be interested in getting Hayward and Favors (at their age, moving into their prime). It would immediately signal that they're interested in winning and want to pursue free agents seriously. If they got rid of a little salary in the trade with us, they could likely have enough cap space to pursue Durant and another of this year's top free agents (Horford, Conley, Whiteside, etc.) If they got Durant on board along with Hayward and Favors, they'd probably have the instant quality culture they'd need to get the most out of Whiteside. They could return to relevance immediately (which pains me). They might even have enough to pursue Westbrook the following year.

If they don't do something like this, their other best option seems to be to hope that they're bad enough (and the ping pong balls fall their way again next year to avoid having Philly take their pick) to get another top pick in 2017 and build around Ingram, Russell and that new pick over the long haul. In other words, I think their best options are to either go all in on free agency or the draft. Given that they're the Lakers, they might choose free agency.

3. There's been a lot of discussion about the need to consolidate both talent and salaries for the Jazz in the near future. If it worked out, this plan could do just that.

4. I see lots of potential for that 5-man line-up the Jazz would have. The pieces have the potential to fit together well within Quin's system.

Cons of the idea

1. The likelihood of Ingram turning into something close to Durant is too low. If it was Simmons I'd be more intrigued (though I worry about his care factor).

2. This would set the clock back probably three years at least for the Jazz's development.

3. The Jazz really do have a good thing going. They have 4 of the 60 or so players in the league with 6 or more win shares last year (Basketball Reference), for example. All of them were 25 or under (according to BR's age scale). Only 27 players 25 and under had that level of win shares. That's less than one per team, on average. We had four. It's easy to argue that this group deserves a chance to see what it can put together with Exum and Burks back, better injury luck, and stronger attention to building a bench.


So overall, I probably wouldn't pull the trigger if this trade was available. But if you're more of the gambling type than I am and are higher on Ingram, it could be best bet to get what the Jazz need.

 

[idiot]

Ewww ... just saw that Gordon Monson had a similar idea (and I know Locke has floated it as well). I feel a little icky.

Edit: apologies to Monson and Locke for the bad joke.

 

[addictionary]

Or you can bargain on the potential to get a star in trade to Ingram or whoever you pick Cavs style. If you are desperate to contend right now. But I would hate this scenario. I wouldn't mind your moves, but I would love to keep D-Faves.

 

[addictionary]

Ewww ... just saw that Gordon Monson had a similar idea (and I know Locke has floated it as well). I feel a little icky.

Hit the shower and wash the dirt off. We are here for you.

 

[stitches]

Fire DL, get Hinkie. Tune back in in 4 years.

 

[Crawlnstall]

I don't see the Lakers doing this...they have a chance for a real star to go next to Russell

 

[fishonjazz]

3. The Jazz really do have a good thing going. They have 4 of the 60 or so players in the league with 6 or more win shares last year (Basketball Reference), for example. All of them were 25 or under (according to BR's age scale). Only 27 players 25 and under had that level of win shares. That's less than one per team, on average. We had four. It's easy to argue that this group deserves a chance to see what it can put together with Exum and Burks back, better injury luck, and stronger attention to building a bench.

I love this paragraph.
I'm stealing it and posting it in another thread.

 

[MDAV28]

I keep thinking about the Spurs and Hawks.

The Spurs have Kawhi Leonard, legitimate superstar and maybe the best 2-way player in the league right now since LeBron seemed to not be as engaged defensively this regular season.Offensively Kawhi averaged 21 pts/7 rebs/2.6 assists/+50% FG/44% 3PT. Our Gordon Hayward averaged 19.7 pts/5 rebs/3.7 assists/43% FG/35% 3PT. I'm not sure if others noticed but Gordon in my mind took a big leap last season on the defensive end as well. To me, Gordon is the closest thing (maybe Jimmy Butler)to a poor man's Kawhi Leonard and I believe he just turned 26.

The Spurs have LaMarcus Aldridge, a legit offensive star 4 that you have to gameplan for. Offensively LaMarcus averaged 18 pts/8.5 rebs/1.5 assists/51.3% FG last season with the Spurs. Our Derrick Favors averaged 16.4/8.1 rebs/1.5 assists/51.5% FG. LaMarcus, of course, reigned in his offense this year with the Spurs and averaged <20 points for the first time since 2010. Derrick will (probably) never averaged >20 points in his career but the point I'm trying to make here is he still averaged 16 points last season and he is a really versatile defender, much more than Aldridge. Derrick had 226 possessions as the PNR Roll man and scored 1.11 Points Per Possesion. Aldridge had 258 possessions as the PNR Roll man and scored 0.9 PPP. Consider Derrick didn't even play with a "real starting" PG all season as well and also consider that Exum projects to be a beast in the PNR.

I really am just rambling but my point is these guys a pretty awesome talents. They are Millsap-esque in that they seem to keep improving and getting better and it is all a question of consistency with them. Derrick had an injury riddled 2015/2016 and like I mentioned above played without a true starting PG. Gordon didn't have many injuries to deal with but yet again a large amount of the playmaking was put on his shoulders this season (had the most assists on the team). I truly believe he will be a more consistent player without as much of the playmaking burden. I am not with the camp that believes we should trade these guys for unknowns at this point.

 

[addictionary]

I love this paragraph.
I'm stealing it and posting it in another thread.

Add to that Rudy staying and working on his game. I am excited to see the outcome.

 

[mellow]

The more I think about the more I want to reject the idea of getting a star to utah. First off, other teams don't trade stars unless they warts. It might be the warts of bad attitude, bad posey, or no defense, or no knees, or something. All thirty teams are keenly aware that stars Winn in the NBA, the Jazz aren't sneaking a star away from another team.

Second, Jazz fans are pretty awful. We do t like our own players, and we like them less when they weren't drafted by the Jazz. Boozer was bought, Al was traded for and Jazz fans hated them both, wanted them gone. As a side note it makes you wonder what 24-27 year old wants to sign here and be hated.

Finally, stars have varying brightness. Lebron and Durrant ain't coming, but the NBA is always looking to MAKE and market new stars. Stars are made by stunning individual performances or winning in the playoffs.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

I keep thinking about the Spurs and Hawks.

The Spurs have Kawhi Leonard, legitimate superstar and maybe the best 2-way player in the league right now since LeBron seemed to not be as engaged defensively this regular season.Offensively Kawhi averaged 21 pts/7 rebs/2.6 assists/+50% FG/44% 3PT. Our Gordon Hayward averaged 19.7 pts/5 rebs/3.7 assists/43% FG/35% 3PT. I'm not sure if others noticed but Gordon in my mind took a big leap last season on the defensive end as well. To me, Gordon is the closest thing (maybe Jimmy Butler)to a poor man's Kawhi Leonard and I believe he just turned 26.

The Spurs have LaMarcus Aldridge, a legit offensive star 4 that you have to gameplan for. Offensively LaMarcus averaged 18 pts/8.5 rebs/1.5 assists/51.3% FG last season with the Spurs. Our Derrick Favors averaged 16.4/8.1 rebs/1.5 assists/51.5% FG. LaMarcus, of course, reigned in his offense this year with the Spurs and averaged <20 points for the first time since 2010. Derrick will (probably) never averaged >20 points in his career but the point I'm trying to make here is he still averaged 16 points last season and he is a really versatile defender, much more than Aldridge. Derrick had 226 possessions as the PNR Roll man and scored 1.11 Points Per Possesion. Aldridge had 258 possessions as the PNR Roll man and scored 0.9 PPP. Consider Derrick didn't even play with a "real starting" PG all season as well and also consider that Exum projects to be a beast in the PNR.

I really am just rambling but my point is these guys a pretty awesome talents. They are Millsap-esque in that they seem to keep improving and getting better and it is all a question of consistency with them. Derrick had an injury riddled 2015/2016 and like I mentioned above played without a true starting PG. Gordon didn't have many injuries to deal with but yet again a large amount of the playmaking was put on his shoulders this season (had the most assists on the team). I truly believe he will be a more consistent player without as much of the playmaking burden. I am not with the camp that believes we should trade these guys for unknowns at this point.

Gordon did actually play hurt for a large chunk of the year with plantar fasciitis which tends to be very painful and doesn't go away with out tons of rest which can't happen till the off season. At one point it got so painful he had to sit out a game or two.

 

[Boris]

Idiot does not realize what the entire world realizes. KD is signing here this summer because he wants a championship. Westbrook will follow the next summer. Stockton n Malone will be brought on board as player coaches or smth and will be honored w a honorary championship.

 

[Miggs]

I keep thinking about the Spurs and Hawks.

The Spurs have Kawhi Leonard, legitimate superstar and maybe the best 2-way player in the league right now since LeBron seemed to not be as engaged defensively this regular season.Offensively Kawhi averaged 21 pts/7 rebs/2.6 assists/+50% FG/44% 3PT. Our Gordon Hayward averaged 19.7 pts/5 rebs/3.7 assists/43% FG/35% 3PT. I'm not sure if others noticed but Gordon in my mind took a big leap last season on the defensive end as well. To me, Gordon is the closest thing (maybe Jimmy Butler)to a poor man's Kawhi Leonard and I believe he just turned 26.

The biggest difference in those numbers is efficiency. I've said it before and I'll say it again, that should be our number one priority as far as current player development goes this off-season. Three-point shooting. In today's NBA, Gordo needs to hit right around 39-40%, Hood 41-43%, Burks around 38-39%, Exum around 35-36%, and so forth. There's no reason they can't. If they can improve their perimeter shooting, we could be a 55 win team this coming season. Yep, I said it.

 

[ncoloradojazz]

Lakers would laugh at you. They know that you need a star to win in this league so why would they trade a future star for 2 good role players? Lakers have chips. They are not some foolish franchise. They know what it takes to win in NBA, Unlike the Jazz. I give you an A Plus for effort and for admitting you need a star player however

 

[fishonjazz]

Lakers would laugh at you. They know that you need a star to win in this league so why would they trade a future star for 2 good role players? Lakers have chips. They are not some foolish franchise. They know what it takes to win in NBA, Unlike the Jazz. I give you an A Plus for effort and for admitting you need a star player however

Lakers can get a current star instead of a future star in free agency. Getting Hayward and favors and bringing in a big time free agent (durant or something) would mean that they would be contenders right away.

Keeping their pick means waiting years for development and makes their team less attractive for big time free agents who know they would not have much of a supporting cast right now and they would have to wait to contend.

Giving them favors and hayward would show big time free agents that the Lakers have a good supporting cast and are serious about winning right now.

That's why the Lakers would think about doing it.

 

[Boris]

Lakers can get a current star instead of a future star in free agency. Getting Hayward and favors and bringing in a big time free agent (durant or something) would mean that they would be contenders right away.

Keeping their pick means waiting years for development and makes their team less attractive for big time free agents who know they would not have much of a supporting cast right now and they would have to wait to contend.

Giving them favors and hayward would show big time free agents that the Lakers have a good supporting cast and are serious about winning right now.

That's why the Lakers would think about doing it.

Who are the Jazz accepting on Hayward n faves? I do not think deangelo n the 2 pick is on the table for us. Do we get Randle too? Are we blowing this think up bad now?

 

[fishonjazz]

Who are the Jazz accepting on Hayward n faves? I do not think deangelo n the 2 pick is on the table for us. Do we get Randle too? Are we blowing this think up bad now?

I think it was favors and hayward for #2 pick. That's it. And I'm not so sure I would even do that (and im one if the people constantly saying the jazz should be going after a chance for a star) but ncoloradojazz was saying the Lakers would never do it.
I think they would definitely consider it. I think we would be giving up too much though.

 

[Goodluckchuck]

Favors and Hayward for "a star" in this years draft? I don't see it. As I have said before. This years draft isn't the draft that get you the star. Trade them both and set yourself back at least 5 years. I would be hesitant to trade either of them for Simmons or Ingram. Just don't see a STAR in either of them. IMHO


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