What's new
By:

Good Article - "NBA Free Agency 2016: Utah Jazz cap situation and future-proofing"

silesian said:
You have that backwards. DL said that they had opportunity to give up assets (Lyles) to get a vet. They could not get a vet "just by signing them" -- that is what is called free agency, which does not happen in the middle of the season.

It is in this offseason when the Jazz have the opportunity in free agency to get a good vet without giving up Lyles or other assets.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what he's saying. Had DL signed a free agent last summer, he wouldn't have had to discuss giving up young lotto picks for vets.
 
GVC said:
No. If you start with the original 11-man rotation, which includes 5 missed games for each player, and then cut ~10% of each player's minutes, you're left with ~27 minutes for an additional player. There are also 46 depth minutes going to Booker, Ingles, Burke and Neto that could be reallocated or be given to free agents. That's 70+ minutes potentially available to free agents without significant cuts to key players or developing youth.

The point:

The common assertion that the Jazz couldn't add players because there weren't enough minutes to go around is absurd. Even if you accept that young players need to be handed loads of minutes right away to develop -- I don't; it's ridiculous -- in almost all cases, there are more than enough minutes to add talent. The Jazz had plenty of available playing time to sign players in either the 2014 or 2015 offseason. People making this argument should reassess. If they feel it's their duty to defend DL, they should provide arguments that at least make sense.



For me at least, it's not all about last season (I really didn't care if the Jazz made the playoffs). My broader point is that the Jazz can't waste opportunities to add talent. Added players can benefit the team now, and can potentially be used in trades to acquire other players and draft picks. HH and NAOS have made a few good points:

1. HH: You don't have to give up picks to sign free agents. All they cost is cap space, which the Jazz have had in abundance the last two offseasons.

2. NAOS: Players you sign can later be traded, even if only in salary dumps for expiring contracts. The Magic didn't want to keep Tobias Harris, so they traded him for two players on expiring contracts.

3. HH: With the cap set to jump this summer, and with so many teams having cap space, there will likely be far fewer available free agent bargains than there were in either 2014 or 2015.


Outside of a couple of trades in the summer of 2013, DL has been remarkably inactive. I don't think passivity is going to work in Utah. You can't waste opportunities to add talent/assets if you hope to build a competitive, entertaining team. Like many posters, I'm in agreement that this is the year for DL to prove himself. If he fails to add talent or the Jazz miss the playoffs or Gordo leaves next summer, it'll probably be time to find a more capable GM.
Click to expand...
Some very good points. I usually will listen to someone else side of a discussion if A. They are respectful. B. They have done their homework and C. They actually acknowledge when I am respectful, and do my homework and make good points.

Like when I discuss with HH he at least sees my side of things and understands where I'm coming from and occasionally says that I said something he at least partly agrees with. There is a give and take there.

Im not real computer savvy and it sucks when I spend a lot of time pouring over information and then present a post full of good info in a respectful way and never ever see you or naos or some others give that post any kind of credit or acknowledgment.

It makes me frustrated and makes me not want to see your side at all.



I often find myself saying things like good point, I didn't realize that, I'm flat out wrong, I can see your side but just disagree.

I rarely get responses like that from others and it gets frustrating.
 
GVC said:
No. If you start with the original 11-man rotation, which includes 5 missed games for each player, and then cut ~10% of each player's minutes, you're left with ~27 minutes for an additional player. There are also 46 depth minutes going to Booker, Ingles, Burke and Neto that could be reallocated or be given to free agents. That's 70+ minutes potentially available to free agents without significant cuts to key players or developing youth.

The point:

The common assertion that the Jazz couldn't add players because there weren't enough minutes to go around is absurd. Even if you accept that young players need to be handed loads of minutes right away to develop -- I don't; it's ridiculous -- in almost all cases, there are more than enough minutes to add talent. The Jazz had plenty of available playing time to sign players in either the 2014 or 2015 offseason. People making this argument should reassess. If they feel it's their duty to defend DL, they should provide arguments that at least make sense.



For me at least, it's not all about last season (I really didn't care if the Jazz made the playoffs). My broader point is that the Jazz can't waste opportunities to add talent. Added players can benefit the team now, and can potentially be used in trades to acquire other players and draft picks. HH and NAOS have made a few good points:

1. HH: You don't have to give up picks to sign free agents. All they cost is cap space, which the Jazz had in abundance the last two offseasons.

2. NAOS: Players you sign can later be traded, even if only in salary dumps for expiring contracts. The Magic didn't want to keep Tobias Harris, so they traded him for two players on expiring contracts.

3. HH: With the cap set to jump this summer, and with so many teams having cap space, there will likely be far fewer available free agent bargains than there were in either 2014 or 2015.


Outside of a couple of trades in the summer of 2013, DL has been remarkably inactive. I don't think passivity is going to work in Utah. You can't waste opportunities to add talent/assets if you hope to build a competitive, entertaining team. Like many posters, I'm in agreement that this is the year for DL to prove himself. If he fails to add talent or the Jazz miss the playoffs or Gordo leaves next summer, it'll probably be time to find a more capable GM.
Click to expand...

Another well thought out post and a quick aside...

Traditionally the keep the band together approach worked really well because contracts were longer. I think turnover is going to be necessary as contracts shorten... championship windows get smaller under the current CBA. If you have a decent all star under contract longer you can be patient over multiple offseasons and do a slow build... if those guys are free agents more often then you have to do things when its prudent to help retain those guys.

I think showing progress to Hayward was important... maybe he sees it. I just wish we had something to show for our financial flexibility... it has basically run out.
 
GVC said:
No. If you start with the original 11-man rotation, which includes 5 missed games for each player, and then cut ~10% of each player's minutes, you're left with ~27 minutes for an additional player. There are also 46 depth minutes going to Booker, Ingles, Burke and Neto that could be reallocated or be given to free agents. That's 70+ minutes potentially available to free agents without significant cuts to key players or developing youth.

The point:

The common assertion that the Jazz couldn't add players because there weren't enough minutes to go around is absurd. Even if you accept that young players need to be handed loads of minutes right away to develop -- I don't; it's ridiculous -- in almost all cases, there are more than enough minutes to add talent. The Jazz had plenty of available playing time to sign players in either the 2014 or 2015 offseason. People making this argument should reassess. If they feel it's their duty to defend DL, they should provide arguments that at least make sense.



For me at least, it's not all about last season (I really didn't care if the Jazz made the playoffs). My broader point is that the Jazz can't waste opportunities to add talent. Added players can benefit the team now, and can potentially be used in trades to acquire other players and draft picks. HH and NAOS have made a few good points:

1. HH: You don't have to give up picks to sign free agents. All they cost is cap space, which the Jazz had in abundance the last two offseasons.

2. NAOS: Players you sign can later be traded, even if only in salary dumps for expiring contracts. The Magic didn't want to keep Tobias Harris, so they traded him for two players on expiring contracts.

3. HH: With the cap set to jump this summer, and with so many teams having cap space, there will likely be far fewer available free agent bargains than there were in either 2014 or 2015.


Outside of a couple of trades in the summer of 2013, DL has been remarkably inactive. I don't think passivity is going to work in Utah. You can't waste opportunities to add talent/assets if you hope to build a competitive, entertaining team. Like many posters, I'm in agreement that this is the year for DL to prove himself. If he fails to add talent or the Jazz miss the playoffs or Gordo leaves next summer, it'll probably be time to find a more capable GM.
Click to expand...


I will say this-- I think there is a lot that needs to be said about how enlightening it can be for a team when their young players are forced into big minute roles. We're kinda seeing this right now in the playoffs-- I'm not sure anyone in the world thought that Biyombo could do what he's doing right now, sustained over 40 minutes a game. And if it wasn't for Val going down, there's a damn good chance that no one ever would. Val was cleared to play, and didn't even get a single minute off the bench, even though last round he was arguably saving the Raptors from elimination while Lowry and DDR were M.I.A.

Biyombo hasn't changed as a player from a month ago to where he is now-- it's just that the opportunity presented itself, and the stability of role is bringing him comfort and confidence.

That's how I feel about Lyles. Signing Tobias Harris really didn't seem at all like a sensible fit on offense-- and it's obvious that Lyles' development got accelerated once he got steady minutes while DFav sat out with injuries.

We are now at the point where as a team Lyles has basically filled the role that Harris would normally play, and I'm not sure anyone would want him on the contract that he's currently on. I think most of us prefer Lyles to Tobias being our 3rd big moving forward. Many wouldn't have said that at the start of the season-- ppl were worried he couldnt even shoot over 30% from 3 thanks to his college numbers.


------


I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. A blind devotion to the young core the team has assembled w/o care for additional asset acquisition is narrow-minded and a recipe for treadmilling in terms of team success. Every offseason there are role players who are bought low and end up being key cogs for competitive teams-- and the onus is on every FO to make sure they're scouring the league for those players.

But I think it's important to assert that we're talking about role players here. Boston is probably the most bullish when it comes to player acquisition-- but if you roam through that roster, you'll find that most players acquired outside of the draft were cast-offs from a former team (Jerebko, Turner, Isaiah Thomas, Amir Johnson, Crowder, Zeller). It's much more easy to work with asserting roles onto these sorts of players & giving them bench roles the the likes of Demarre. You think he's gonna choose coming off the bench in Utah over starting in Toronto?

Yes, the argument that says the signed contracts from last offseason are moveable and we still get a net positive out of them in terms of assets is super valid-- although I would also enjoy seeing a list of max-deals that have been traded before their first year completes. But personally I would rather side with a promising year of Trey Lyles development than ending the season with a crippled Brandon Jennings and the oft-injured Ersan Ilyasova. Some wold argue that the presence of Harris wouldn't have inhibited Trey's development-- and with that I disagree.


I'm more upset with not making a bigger acquisition at the deadline than just Shelvin Mack. Acquiring a wing with any semblance of offense would have been a godsend. We had the assets for it. In July we figured we'd have Dante and Burks for an entire season, and we lost both. For DL's vantage point it seems like he overvalued team chemistry, and understood not being hesitant to acquire roster depth. I guess we'll see if he meant it this coming offseason.

Handlogten's Heros said:
Another well thought out post and a quick aside...

Traditionally the keep the band together approach worked really well because contracts were longer. I think turnover is going to be necessary as contracts shorten... championship windows get smaller under the current CBA. If you have a decent all star under contract longer you can be patient over multiple offseasons and do a slow build... if those guys are free agents more often then you have to do things when its prudent to help retain those guys.

I think showing progress to Hayward was important... maybe he sees it. I just wish we had something to show for our financial flexibility... it has basically run out.
Click to expand...

I've been saying this for weeks now. If Hayward leaves, this rebuild is a dumpster-fire. The team really needs to show him that they're for real. 2017 is a big year. Fortunately, they're really well equipped to take that next step. A couple of decisions here and there will explode the potential of this group. I'd consider banishing Exum to the bench and picking up Conley (although it's unlikely he comes here) if that's what it takes to keep Gordon.
 
dalamon said:
I will say this-- I think there is a lot that needs to be said about how enlightening it can be for a team when their young players are forced into big minute roles. We're kinda seeing this right now in the playoffs-- I'm not sure anyone in the world thought that Biyombo could do what he's doing right now, sustained over 40 minutes a game. And if it wasn't for Val going down, there's a damn good chance that no one ever would. Val was cleared to play, and didn't even get a single minute off the bench, even though last round he was arguably saving the Raptors from elimination while Lowry and DDR were M.I.A.

Biyombo hasn't changed as a player from a month ago to where he is now-- it's just that the opportunity presented itself, and the stability of role is bringing him comfort and confidence.

That's how I feel about Lyles. Signing Tobias Harris really didn't seem at all like a sensible fit on offense-- and it's obvious that Lyles' development got accelerated once he got steady minutes while DFav sat out with injuries.

We are now at the point where as a team Lyles has basically filled the role that Harris would normally play, and I'm not sure anyone would want him on the contract that he's currently on. I think most of us prefer Lyles to Tobias being our 3rd big moving forward. Many wouldn't have said that at the start of the season-- ppl were worried he couldnt even shoot over 30% from 3 thanks to his college numbers.


------


I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. A blind devotion to the young core the team has assembled w/o care for additional asset acquisition is narrow-minded and a recipe for treadmilling in terms of team success. Every offseason there are role players who are bought low and end up being key cogs for competitive teams-- and the onus is on every FO to make sure they're scouring the league for those players.

But I think it's important to assert that we're talking about role players here. Boston is probably the most bullish when it comes to player acquisition-- but if you roam through that roster, you'll find that most players acquired outside of the draft were cast-offs from a former team (Jerebko, Turner, Isaiah Thomas, Amir Johnson, Crowder, Zeller). It's much more easy to work with asserting roles onto these sorts of players & giving them bench roles the the likes of Demarre. You think he's gonna choose coming off the bench in Utah over starting in Toronto?

Yes, the argument that says the signed contracts from last offseason are moveable and we still get a net positive out of them in terms of assets is super valid-- although I would also enjoy seeing a list of max-deals that have been traded before their first year completes. But personally I would rather side with a promising year of Trey Lyles development than ending the season with a crippled Brandon Jennings and the oft-injured Ersan Ilyasova. Some wold argue that the presence of Harris wouldn't have inhibited Trey's development-- and with that I disagree.


I'm more upset with not making a bigger acquisition at the deadline than just Shelvin Mack. Acquiring a wing with any semblance of offense would have been a godsend. We had the assets for it. In July we figured we'd have Dante and Burks for an entire season, and we lost both. For DL's vantage point it seems like he overvalued team chemistry, and understood not being hesitant to acquire roster depth. I guess we'll see if he meant it this coming offseason.



I've been saying this for weeks now. If Hayward leaves, this rebuild is a dumpster-fire. The team really needs to show him that they're for real. 2017 is a big year. Fortunately, they're really well equipped to take that next step. A couple of decisions here and there will explode the potential of this group. I'd consider banishing Exum to the bench and picking up Conley (although it's unlikely he comes here) if that's what it takes to keep Gordon.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think I'm done with this argument... I think we've come to reasonable conclusions with the reasonable posters.

I will sing DL praises and look forward to his awesome draft pick this year. I'm going positive and zen like.

I'm also glad we didn't trade AB for Teague... If he comes back healthy that contract will look like gold next year after the crazy money has been handed out.
 
Step 1 - Get everyone back healthy and rested. P3 is critical to the Jazz progression this offseason.

Step 2 - Shed some dead weight contracts. Plans should be made and executed for Booker, Burke and Pliess to all be gone before free agency rolls around (saves $6 million + whatever Booker makes on a new deal and three roster spots.)

Step 3 - Jazz should scout like they have been and draft the best two players that they can get their hands on. . . with the understanding that those two will be the "Star" players in the D-league for this upcoming season. That's a win-win. They're close enough to work with Snyder and Co. on a regular basis, but get minutes in the D-league to facilitate development.

Step 4 - Add two veteran players through FA or trade to round out the rotation. Hopefully, they're of a caliber that pushes the team into the playoff picture. An All star caliber player would be great. I've mentioned it before, and will do so again - I'd start with chasing Pau Gasol. He'd be a great fit for what Utah is looking to do. Offensive minded All Star big who loves the head coach. Burn up some assets to chase a guy that's off the radar at the moment (hopefully a wing).

Start with Gobert, Favors, Lyles, Hayward, Hood, Burks, Exum and Mack. Add Gasol, a 2nd acquisition, Jingles and Neto, plus two rookies and the better of Withey/Johnson. Factor in better health and further development. . . and that's a much better team than what the Jazz were able to put on the court (in a season that they missed the playoffs by 2 games.)

End of the year was frustrating (especially because I did advocate spending some money last offseason - was wrong about wanting DMC back, but dead right about Lin and Biyambo). . . but the youth movement is still going well and strong.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Yeah I think I'm done with this argument... I think we've come to reasonable conclusions with the reasonable posters.

I will sing DL praises and look forward to his awesome draft pick this year. I'm going positive and zen like.

I'm also glad we didn't trade AB for Teague... If he comes back healthy that contract will look like gold next year after the crazy money has been handed out.
Click to expand...
This is a great point. As frustrating as it was to have him miss so much time injured, he was showing signs of being a better fit for the offense and a great player in his role before the injury. I'm looking forward to seeing how he comes back from that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top