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RealGM: Is Quin Snyder’s offense a good fit for the Jazz or is it holding them back?

BabyPeterzz

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https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/243762/Five-Question-Season-Preview-Northwest-Division

Entering year three of his tenure as Utah’s head coach, this is far and away the best roster Snyder has had at his disposal. The Jazz are virtually 15 deep when it comes to viable (and at least semi-proven) rotation players. The addition of George Hill this offseason has plugged a major hole at the point guard position. With such a stocked cupboard, this should be Snyder’s first year helming a team that finishes in the top half of the NBA in offensive efficiency.

But the offensive scheme Snyder relies on is one of the more unique systems in the league. The Jazz play at a snail’s pace -- they’ve finished last in the league in both of Snyder’s seasons -- and have a huge variety of plays containing multiple reads and counters. Perhaps no team in the NBA has more mindless reversal passes and non-penetrating dribble hand-offs in their base system. It’s those concepts that cause the Jazz to eat up so much of the shot clock every possession.

In general, Snyder’s offense relies very heavily on false action -- basically decoy movements that hide the possessions real goal. But what often happens during Utah’s offensive possessions is that this emphasis on shifting the defense before getting to the core element of the play leaves the team with precious little time on the shot clock to find good looks. By procrastinating so long before getting to the meaty part of their sets, the Jazz have little margin for error when it comes to avoiding tough, bailout shots.

Yet given these critiques of Snyder’s system, it’s hard to tell if it’s really all that limiting. For all the talent on the roster, there isn’t a single player who can run at a set defense and consistently create good looks. Rodney Hood, Gordon Hayward, Alec Burks and the newly acquired Joe Johnson are all, skilled versatile wings, but they’re not LeBron James. Hill represents a massive upgrade at point guard, but he is not Chris Paul.

Those players are all best suited for the role of second-side operators -- players that can successfully navigate a defense after some previous action has caused their opponent to be pulled out of position. And the team’s bigs, while improving their offensive skills, aren’t striking fear into the heart of opposing defenses when they post up, roll to the rim or spot up looking for open jumpers. That’s why, in theory, the endless dribble hand offs, ball swings and elbow touches may be necessary to generate good looks for this group.

Up to this point, that “theory” is essentially the only thing we’ve had to go on when critiquing Snyder’s offensive approach. Because in the first year of his tenure, Snyder took over a team in transition while his second season was undermined by the personnel limitations at a crucial NBA position (point guard). Those outside factors made it hard to truly evaluate if more could be done to boost Utah’s middling offensive production.

Even with Hayward out to start this upcoming season, there is now enough talent on this Jazz roster to get a better feel for the strengths and shortcomings of Snyder’s system. If Utah continues a steady climb up the offensive efficiency rankings, it should take the pressure off Snyder to change up his approach on that end of the floor. But if the Jazz fail to show improvement on offense this year, it could stall their efforts to establish themselves as bonafide contenders out West and start to raise serious questions about Snyder’s approach.

Some here have been critical of Q's offense (franklin), and for good reason IMO. We're slow as ****, and rely on multiple reads to get the desired shot. Its a complicated offense and we see saw the team stagnate on O often last season. But we've made some upgrades, specifically at PG, so maybe we'll see a more free flowing offense?

Is it Quin's offense that's an issue or is it personnel? Did we address it properly this off-season?
 
the article ended on saying that this season will answer a lot of the questions regarding Q's offence and whether it's the proper offence given the talent of the squad-- and i think the writer is correct in saying that.

It's hard to critique the visual appeal & effectiveness of an offence given injuries + Quin probably having to work with the worst stable of PGs of any NBA team over the last five years
 
If Gobert and Exum didn't give Snyder a direction to play the Jazz would have been in trouble because of Snyders slo-mo offense.We saw too many examples of not being able to get baskets at the end of games because of passes doing nothing but burning clock.
If Exum is the future PG ,then his speed and PG skillz are wasted playing slo-mo ball ,they need to use their speed and young legs.
 
Good article and some valid points. Didn't the Jazz try to practice with a 14/second clock? We'll see if that translates into a faster pace. With the youth and depth the team has, and the altitude factor at home, Utah SHOULD be playing at a very fast pace. Get opponents doing Exum impressions: hands on hips, tongue hanging out.
 
Good article and some valid points. Didn't the Jazz try to practice with a 14/second clock? We'll see if that translates into a faster pace. With the youth and depth the team has, and the altitude factor at home, Utah SHOULD be playing at a very fast pace. Get opponents doing Exum impressions: hands on hips, tongue hanging out.

Yes, there were some practices with a 14 second clock. According to some reports at least. I don't expect the Jazz to be a "very fast" paced team under Snyder but hopefully they will improve to somewhere in the middle of the pack.
 
There is no correlation between pace and offensive efficiency. Playing a faster, more free flowing offense is just some BS cliche to keep fans excited. You need to play at the pace that fits your personnel. The Jazz had a 7'2 center, a PF that doesn't run the floor, and the worst PG situation in the league. Of course the Jazz are going to want to slow down the game. The system doesn't need a change, the players need to execute the system better.
 
https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/243762/Five-Question-Season-Preview-Northwest-Division



Some here have been critical of Q's offense (franklin), and for good reason IMO. We're slow as ****, and rely on multiple reads to get the desired shot. Its a complicated offense and we see saw the team stagnate on O often last season. But we've made some upgrades, specifically at PG, so maybe we'll see a more free flowing offense?

Is it Quin's offense that's an issue or is it personnel? Did we address it properly this off-season?

I don't agree with the below. It's outdated.

But the offensive scheme Snyder relies on is one of the more unique systems in the league. The Jazz play at a snail’s pace -- they’ve finished last in the league in both of Snyder’s seasons -- and have a huge variety of plays containing multiple reads and counters. Perhaps no team in the NBA has more mindless reversal passes and non-penetrating dribble hand-offs in their base system. It’s those concepts that cause the Jazz to eat up so much of the shot clock every possession.

There was very little read-react in QS's system LAST SEASON. If this preseason is any indicator, Snyder is going to run a much more versatile, attack style, north-to-south offense. I think he feels he has the tools to up the tempo as we saw in the Phoenix game. They ran and ran and ran, daring the suns to outscore them.

The set offense is different as well. We don't have Trey Burke or Neto running the pnr. They are attacking now in pnr with a definitive difference in style. The guards go hard to the hole trying to draw both the switch and the guard, then passing instead of looking for their own shot. Gobert and Whithey have been getting to the line a ton as the weak side defender comes either on their back, to the side, or late in front of them. The guards have been getting throws as well. They are averaging a whopping 34 free throw attempts per game this off season compared to 23 last year. The difference is QS is putting the ball into the big's hands in traffic and forcing the defenders to put them on the line.

Teams have been countering that by sucking in the opposite side defenders and have also been giving the guards a step at times. I've seen a lot more wing threes instead of corner, as the weak side corner defender has to stay home but also attempt to cover the roll man, so the wing defender has to help defend (this is where the fouls are coming from).
 
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Here is similar to what I'm talking about. [MENTION=253]Saint Cy of JFC[/MENTION] mentioned the 4 out 1 in offense. This play started that way with Diaw as the in man and evolved into basically a 5 out offense.

--Notice how deep the ball handler gets. The dish is around the backside of both defenders.
--Question marks. The left defender cannot keep his eye on the ball and his man. He doesn't know if he needs to help on Rudy or cover his man. The other wind defender is equally confused as a reversal by the ball handler would lead to a wide open 3 by Diaw.
 
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I don't agree with the below. It's outdated.



There was very little read-react in QS's system LAST SEASON. If this preseason is any indicator, Snyder is going to run a much more versatile, attack style, north-to-south offense. I think he feels he has the tools to up the tempo as we saw in the Phoenix game. They ran and ran and ran, daring the suns to outscore them.

The set offense is different as well. We don't have Trey Burke or Neto running the pnr. They are attacking now in pnr with a definitive difference in style. The guards go hard to the hole trying to draw both the switch and the guard, then passing instead of looking for their own shot. Gobert and Whithey have been getting to the line a ton as the weak side defender comes either on their back, to the side, or late in front of them. The guards have been getting throws as well. They are averaging a whopping 34 free throw attempts per game this off season compared to 23 last year. The difference is QS is putting the ball into the big's hands in traffic and forcing the defenders to put them on the line.

Teams have been countering that by sucking in the opposite side defenders and have also been giving the guards a step at times. I've seen a lot more wing threes instead of corner, as the weak side corner defender has to stay home but also attempt to cover the roll man, so the wing defender has to help defend (this is where the fouls are coming from).

The offense has looked a little bit better, but I disagree with your analysis here. The Jazz run sets, they don't run set plays. The offense is heavily dependent on reads. I don't follow on your point about the FT's either. It's a 6 game sample size, half of the games are garbage time, preseason is always foul happy, and we had 53 FT's in one game that had a total of 106 FT's. Regardless, you made a statement that the Jazz are getting the bigs the ball in traffic. It's the opposite. The Jazz bigs are getting to line because they are open and putting the defense in a position where they have to foul. That's the difference, and I don't think it comes from systematic changes.

Rudy has gotten significantly better at setting screens and rolling, but he's also been playing a lot more with Boris Diaw. Diaw is making passes that Favors could not even dream of. It's the same offense, but it runs much better when you replace a bad passer with an elite one. Same idea holds for the PG position. George Hill is an obvious upgrade, and Mack/Exum are getting much better at getting to the rim than Neto/Burke. The system is no different, the personnel is different.
 
the article ended on saying that this season will answer a lot of the questions regarding Q's offence and whether it's the proper offence given the talent of the squad-- and i think the writer is correct in saying that.

It's hard to critique the visual appeal & effectiveness of an offence given injuries + Quin probably having to work with the worst stable of PGs of any NBA team over the last five years

Hey you, get off the fence
 
The offense has looked a little bit better, but I disagree with your analysis here. The Jazz run sets, they don't run set plays.

? Do you mean they run sets not a set offense? Set plays are sets. And yes, the Jazz are developing more of a set offense based on 1 in 4 out and 5 out. It is read-react. However, the OP article was clearly based on historical QS and seems like the author has not watched any of the Jazz this pre-season. Last year, the Jazz put a lot of bodies in the paint and played perimeter pnr and shot a lot of long 2's. This year they are getting into the paint much more.

Regardless, you made a statement that the Jazz are getting the bigs the ball in traffic. It's the opposite. The Jazz bigs are getting to line because they are open and putting the defense in a position where they have to foul. That's the difference, and I don't think it comes from systematic changes.

Huh? The bigs are getting open but getting to the line without traffic? Umm...
 
? Do you mean they run sets not a set offense? Set plays are sets. And yes, the Jazz are developing more of a set offense based on 1 in 4 out and 5 out. It is read-react. However, the OP article was clearly based on historical QS and seems like the author has not watched any of the Jazz this pre-season. Last year, the Jazz put a lot of bodies in the paint and played perimeter pnr and shot a lot of long 2's. This year they are getting into the paint much more.

A set play is designed to get a specific shot or to get a specific player in specific area. Sets are just the general motions that team runs. You don't go into expecting a certain kind of shot. The offense has an action, the defense reacts, and then the player has to decide what to do with it from there. That's how the Jazz offense works and has worked since Quin has been here. We have much better decision makers now, you could have seen this coming a mile away. Of course Hill and Diaw are going to be making better decisions with the ball than Neto and Favors.

The Jazz aren't developing a 4 out system as much as it is that they just have different personnel. You can't run a 4 out system with Favors unless he's the only big. The entire point of a 4 out system is to have 4 guys that space the floor and Favors doesn't do that. We play differently with him on the floor, it's just a fact.

At the end of the day, it's just preseason anyways. I don't know how you can make large judgements about our offense in 6 preseason games where we were missing our best offensive players for the majority of the time. I think you can say that Hill, Diaw, and Exum are fitting in nicely, but beyond that, I don't see much of a structural change in our offense.

Our offense wasn't that bad in the first place. You say that our offense generated a lot of long 2's, but the Jazz were 25th in the league in percentage of shots taken as long 2's last season. That's not a lot, especially when consider how many possessions ended up with Hood/Hayward having to toss one up against the clock. The offense certainly isn't designed to create long 2's.


Huh? The bigs are getting open but getting to the line without traffic? Umm...


In order to get the line, you need to have the ball first. Rudy is catching the ball in much better positions this year, and it's not because he turned into Jerry Rice over the summer. He's open and catching the pass clean. Once he catches it, the defense has to let him dunk it or foul him. If they were in position, they wouldn't have to foul him.
 
It would be more correct to state that "Trey Burke shot a lot of long twos until Quinn benched his *** for shooting and missing a lot of long twos."
 
So, after one game, now that we have definitive evidence and how amazing or terrible we will be this year, how did the offense look?

To my untrained eye, it looked the same as last year.
 
A set play is designed to get a specific shot or to get a specific player in specific area. Sets are just the general motions that team runs. You don't go into expecting a certain kind of shot. The offense has an action, the defense reacts, and then the player has to decide what to do with it from there. That's how the Jazz offense works and has worked since Quin has been here. We have much better decision makers now, you could have seen this coming a mile away. Of course Hill and Diaw are going to be making better decisions with the ball than Neto and Favors.

The Jazz aren't developing a 4 out system as much as it is that they just have different personnel. You can't run a 4 out system with Favors unless he's the only big. The entire point of a 4 out system is to have 4 guys that space the floor and Favors doesn't do that. We play differently with him on the floor, it's just a fact.

At the end of the day, it's just preseason anyways. I don't know how you can make large judgements about our offense in 6 preseason games where we were missing our best offensive players for the majority of the time. I think you can say that Hill, Diaw, and Exum are fitting in nicely, but beyond that, I don't see much of a structural change in our offense.

Our offense wasn't that bad in the first place. You say that our offense generated a lot of long 2's, but the Jazz were 25th in the league in percentage of shots taken as long 2's last season. That's not a lot, especially when consider how many possessions ended up with Hood/Hayward having to toss one up against the clock. The offense certainly isn't designed to create long 2's.





In order to get the line, you need to have the ball first. Rudy is catching the ball in much better positions this year, and it's not because he turned into Jerry Rice over the summer. He's open and catching the pass clean. Once he catches it, the defense has to let him dunk it or foul him. If they were in position, they wouldn't have to foul him.


I said set offence not set plays, but thanks for the clarification of your preferred jargon.

NBA offenses do run set plays within set offenses. Using your jargon, no NBA offense runs set plays; they all run set plays within sets. Watch the Jazz-Clippers highlights. There are some pretty bad *** new schemes designed to get a specific shot, mainly a three within the set.

I don't get your beef that better players = same exact offense. This is not who Quin Snyder is. He is well known for creativity and utilizing who he has. He seems to love creating new [set] plays. With new players he will evolve the offense and has. He has distinctly changed the high pnr from the point guard angle. They also weren't running 5 out last year and going so hard north to south.
 
So, after one game, now that we have definitive evidence and how amazing or terrible we will be this year, how did the offense look?

To my untrained eye, it looked the same as last year.

Just watch Rodney Hood highlights from last game compared to highlight videos from last year and it is pretty easy to see the changes.
 
I said set offence not set plays, but thanks for the clarification of your preferred jargon.

NBA offenses do run set plays within set offenses. Using your jargon, no NBA offense runs set plays; they all run set plays within sets. Watch the Jazz-Clippers highlights. There are some pretty bad *** new schemes designed to get a specific shot, mainly a three within the set.

I don't get your beef that better players = same exact offense. This is not who Quin Snyder is. He is well known for creativity and utilizing who he has. He seems to love creating new [set] plays. With new players he will evolve the offense and has. He has distinctly changed the high pnr from the point guard angle. They also weren't running 5 out last year and going so hard north to south.

You actually said that sets are the same thing as set plays, and I disagreed so I put in my two cents. The real distinction is that plays are predetermined whereas as sets are not. Earlier you said that there was very little read-react to Quin's offense and I completely disagree with that. Quin's offense is organic and it presents the players with decisions that they have to make on the fly. We do things to open up other things, but the notion that there was no read and react is just wrong in my opinion.

Different players will attack situations in different ways. For example, consider the moment our ball handler turns the corner on the pick and roll. If it's Mack, he's probably going to take to the hole and look for a shot around the basket or dish it off. Neto is going to look for a pass to the big right away and if he can't find it he's just going to swing it. Hood might try to shield the defender with his back and look for a pull up...The setup is the same, but the result is different because of the difference of players.

You're correct that we weren't running 5 out last season, and we're not using it much this year either. Lyles and Diaw together very briefly in the preseason. The entire point of a 4 out or 5 out system is to have 4 or 5 guys that can space the floor. It's entirely dependent on the personnel. When you replace Favors with Lyles or Diaw it opens up things quite a bit. The principles of the offense are the same, but the floor is more open and we don't need to run so much smoke an mirrors.

Thanks for the recommendation about the highlights, but I'll pass. For one, I've seen every play that happened in the preseason and half of them in person. I also think watching highlights to understand an offense, especially in the preseason, is not effective at all but to each their own. Watching a portion of the possessions that result in a highlight is not how I make judgements on how an offense works.
 
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