Do you support these protests against Trump?

[fgcamel]

Okay, clearly we agree that not everyone who voted for Trump is a racist.

I'm not baking down from my point, however. Everyone who voted for Trump has more tolerance for racism than I do and/or feels like there are other issues that are far more important than racism.

Trump's campaign was racist. Either you chose to ignore or look past that part of it or you are sympathetic to it.

EDIT: Option C -- There is something about your outlook on life that makes you unable to see and understand racism, how it is expressed and what it does.

I actually think a lot of his supporters just view him as not bowing to political correctness rather than being racist. Which is highly valued among people who have grown sick of all the social justice warriors and safe spaces of today.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Okay, clearly we agree that not everyone who voted for Trump is a racist.

I'm not baking down from my point, however. Everyone who voted for Trump has more tolerance for racism than I do and/or feels like there are other issues that are far more important than racism.

Trump's campaign was racist. Either you chose to ignore or look past that part of it or you are sympathetic to it.

EDIT: Option C -- There is something about your outlook on life that makes you unable to see and understand racism, how it is expressed and what it does.

Option D --
I can see where "the wall" and some other issues the racists took as pandering to them and thus emboldening them. Under this option I recognize this as factual but choose to look past the gummy hacks and view things as a whole.

If I could eradicate racism I would do so in a minute... but I can't, you can't, and neither of the candidates could. It's a dying breed. Racism has been declining, steadily, for more than 100 years (please don't deny that) and as much as it's disgusting, the finish line is something that requires more than just 1st down runs.

BTW, America doesn't have some exclusive license to racism. Whether it's religion, color, culture, etc... it's a global thing and although I wish America was better, I dare suggest we've made more strides in our young history than counterparts have over a millennia.

So for me it's not about racism. I am an anti-establishment (politically entitled) hack.

I'm hopeful for shake up. I will never condone unfair treatment. I just want someone to do something smart. Maybe I'm misguided, but I'm not a racist.

 

[b_line]

I will again post Richard Rorty's quote from 1998 (because Rorty is an amazing thinker):

Holy **** this is terrifying how accurate this is. We need to wake up and not allow Trump to undo the progress that has been made for minorities and women in the last 50 years.

 

[Gameface]

This is not meant as an Ah Ha! type of question, just a legit question on your viewpoint.

What do you make of minorities who voted for Trump? I think I read like 30% hispanics voted for Trump, and like 9% black people (not claiming I know those figures are accurate).

That might be low percentage wise, but that's a ton of individual people voting for a person almost everyone is calling a racist.

Again, a real question to get your view, not to set you up. I ask because we have contrasting views and I do not think Trump is racist.

Many minorities see the world through a racial lense. Many have come to terms with the fact they live in a racial world. Hell, I'd say most of them have. And some minorities are racists.

In all of my posts I have left open the possibility that people can see issues that are larger than racism and decide on their candidate based on their own set of priorities. There are even minorities that respect the idea of a nation protecting its culture and boarders against undue influence from other cultures and ethnicities. Many of them might see themselves as the ones who played by the rules and have achieved a higher level of acceptance within our society because of their efforts at acclimation and integration.

Latinos are not particularly liberal in their views overall. If the Republican party had made any effort over the last 20 years they could have huge support in the Latino community. Instead they have talked about building walls and deporting Latinos. Despite that many latinos plain and simple agree with their ideology on too many other issues and side with them regardless of the fact that conservatives have not embraced them.

The story about the Muslim woman who voted for Trump was moving. All through the election I was creating arguments that might make me question my support for Clinton, yet Trump never put any of those arguments forward. He just continued calling Hillary a crook and talking about other **** I didn't care about. And that's part of the issue I have. There was a -- cover your ears Joe Bagofdonuts, I'm about to use words you don't like -- nuanced argument to be made regarding Clinton's role in the destruction of the gains made during the "surge" in Iraq. As well as her role in not preventing the rise of ISIS. There is more, but regardless these arguments Trump never made any of them. He made arguments that I personally thought were dumb. And he mostly said things that I thought was dumb, and he seemed to appeal to the dumb side of people and not the better part of people. He didn't try to appeal to the thoughtful, intelligent, sensitive parts of our being, he instead appealed to the scared, brutish, simple parts of our being. I don't like that. I don't want that. It makes me sad that as a nation we chose that.

But if I take any condolence, it is this: I have never known, in my lifetime, a Presidential candidate to keep to their promises. I only hope Trump turns out to be no different than the rest.

 

[b_line]

I will again post Richard Rorty's quote from 1998 (because Rorty is an amazing thinker):

Wow. That was pretty good thinking.

ONLY problem I have with the discussion here is that somehow everyone that voted for Trump is a racist and it's the only reason he got the vote. Helps with the hurting?

It's a truly ridiculous notion.

I would completely agree that a racist would be much more likely to vote for Trump than Hillary... but give me a break that racism won an election following a two term black President.

I view it as this: not everyone that voted for Trump was racist, but every racist certainly voted for Trump.

However, I'd add a caveat that if you voted for Trump, you have to be kidding yourself if you disbelieve that you are at least mildly racist. A person completely devoid of racial prejudice would stand on principle alone in not voting for Trump. By contrast, vote for Trump carries a certain amount of condoning his racist behavior. The person who views themselves as not racist, and treats others equally, but still voted for Trump is, at the very least telling us that they think it's alright to be vicariously racist, if not overtly racist.

I respect a very few amount if people that I know who cast a Trump vote, but I live in Utah where we had an option for a third party conservative that was not an idiot. Trump would have gotten the majority if those votes had mcmullin not run, and more people I respect would have voted for Trump. I get the argument that they are not racist, but to argue that they are not racist by ommission is wrong. Even if it's extremely mild, they are not devoid of racism. Otherwise, we wouldn't be taking about president elect tRump

 

[b_line]

I will again post Richard Rorty's quote from 1998 (because Rorty is an amazing thinker):

This is not meant as an Ah Ha! type of question, just a legit question on your viewpoint.

What do you make of minorities who voted for Trump? I think I read like 30% hispanics voted for Trump, and like 9% black people (not claiming I know those figures are accurate).

That might be low percentage wise, but that's a ton of individual people voting for a person almost everyone is calling a racist.

Again, a real question to get your view, not to set you up. I ask because we have contrasting views and I do not think Trump is racist.

[video]https://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/chappelles-show-clayton-bigsby-the-black-white-supremist/82404406/

https://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/...on-bigsby-the-black-white-supremist/82404406/

 

[Dr. Jones]

I view it as this: not everyone that voted for Trump was racist, but every racist certainly voted for Trump.

However, I'd add a caveat that if you voted for Trump, you have to be kidding yourself if you disbelieve that you are at least mildly racist. A person completely devoid of racial prejudice would stand on principle alone in not voting for Trump. By contrast, vote for Trump carries a certain amount of condoning his racist behavior. The person who views themselves as not racist, and treats others equally, but still voted for Trump is, at the very least telling us that they think it's alright to be vicariously racist, if not overtly racist.

I respect a very few amount if people that I know who cast a Trump vote, but I live in Utah where we had an option for a third party conservative that was not an idiot. Trump would have gotten the majority if those votes had mcmullin not run, and more people I respect would have voted for Trump. I get the argument that they are not racist, but to argue that they are not racist by ommission is wrong. Even if it's extremely mild, they are not devoid of racism. Otherwise, we wouldn't be taking about president elect tRump

Forgive me, Arne, but that's insulting.
Although I didn't vote for Trump (I didn't), there's no way that tens of millions of people voted for him because they're "kinda racist."

My daughter (kindergarten) has a teacher (woman) that is the nicest, sweetest, person you'll ever meet.
She was ecstatic over his election because she's tired of career politicians making business decisions. Maybe she's dumb. But she's not a racist.

I have another friend that's a black cop that feels EXACTLY the same way.

Only reason(s) I'm here. To defend those people who have a different vision of what happened than others do. They are not bashing you. You are bashing them.

 

[b_line]

Option D --
I can see where "the wall" and some other issues the racists took as pandering to them and thus emboldening them. Under this option I recognize this as factual but choose to look past the gummy hacks and view things as a whole.

If I could eradicate racism I would do so in a minute... but I can't, you can't, and neither of the candidates could. It's a dying breed. Racism has been declining, steadily, for more than 100 years (please don't deny that) and as much as it's disgusting, the finish line is something that requires more than just 1st down runs.

BTW, America doesn't have some exclusive license to racism. Whether it's religion, color, culture, etc... it's a global thing and although I wish America was better, I dare suggest we've made more strides in our young history than counterparts have over a millennia.

So for me it's not about racism. I am an anti-establishment (politically entitled) hack.

I'm hopeful for shake up. I will never condone unfair treatment. I just want someone to do something smart. Maybe I'm misguided, but I'm not a racist.

I totally agree that racism has been declining, but I would say it's more that it's been declining in the US since basically the revolution. The funny thing is the way we react to the mild resurgences in racism. I view it as a line that follows a linear trend but is not linear short term, like most things. It's terrifying to us when people get back to being a little more racist than we feel that the general public has progressed to. But that trend will smooth, and in a other hundred years from now, the world will be a much less racist place. It's just a little difficult and bunny at times.

I'm encouraged by the state of the US when I read or hear about some other less developed countries and the leadership they have. The dude in the Philippines is pretty damn terrifying right now for example. We have a system in place that will remove a leader like that fairly quickly, and we have a fairly resilient people and economy. That is what I take comfort in these days.

 

[b_line]

Forgive me, Arne, but that's insulting.
Although I didn't vote for Trump (I didn't), there's no way that tens of millions of people voted for him because they're "kinda racist."

My daughter (kindergarten) has a teacher (woman) that is the nicest, sweetest, person you'll ever meet.
She was ecstatic over his election because she's tired of career politicians making business decisions. Maybe she's dumb. But she's not a racist.

I have another friend that's a black cop that feels EXACTLY the same way.

Only reason(s) I'm here. To defend those people who have a different vision of what happened than others do. They are not bashing you. You are bashing them.

That probably came off as a little too strong. What I mean is that unless they just didn't pay attention at all, they knew they were voting for a racist candidate, and that means that they were alright with racism existing. In my view, that portends mild racism. I understand your view that it does not.

To clarify though, I don't view myself as post-racism. I think pretty much everyone in this country has a little bit if mild racism. For me, I feel it as a positive feeling when I see people of color succeeding or doing something I view as out of the normally portrayed stereotype for them. It's not a bad thing, it'd just something that exists.

Louis ck talked about it in his snl monologue, it's long, but I think it portrays the mild racism I'm talking about.

[video=youtube_share;crjrWF-RRlg]https://youtu.be/crjrWF-RRlg

 

[b_line]

Forgive me, Arne, but that's insulting.
Although I didn't vote for Trump (I didn't), there's no way that tens of millions of people voted for him because they're "kinda racist."

My daughter (kindergarten) has a teacher (woman) that is the nicest, sweetest, person you'll ever meet.
She was ecstatic over his election because she's tired of career politicians making business decisions. Maybe she's dumb. But she's not a racist.

I have another friend that's a black cop that feels EXACTLY the same way.

Only reason(s) I'm here. To defend those people who have a different vision of what happened than others do. They are not bashing you. You are bashing them.

I also don't think that is why they voted for him, in fact. I think it's not even a reason that they voted for him. But, they did vote for a person who has overtly racist tendencies, and being against racism mattered less than being against something else to them.

For me, voting against racism was a huge factor in my not voting for Trump. For other people, they might have viewed Hillary as corrupt, or they voted anti establishment, and that was important to them. Those are very important issues, and won Trump the election, and hopefully will change the way politics are done in America.

 

[LogGrad98]

I am not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I also don't think that is why they voted for him, in fact. I think it's not even a reason that they voted for him. But, they did vote for a person who has overtly racist tendencies, and being against racism mattered less than being against something else to them.

For me, voting against racism was a huge factor in my not voting for Trump. For other people, they might have viewed Hillary as corrupt, or they voted anti establishment, and that was important to them. Those are very important issues, and won Trump the election, and hopefully will change the way politics are done in America.

Thank you.

Yes, for most, that I know, they were voting for smart business decisions and someone that wasn't going to "make theirs" from politics. The Trump supporters I know didn't even have racism come into the conversation (anymore than Hillary being a "liar" did).

There were real people with really different ideals that didn't involve race.
That's ALL I was trying to say.

 

[♪alt13]

Nonetheless, the electoral college is an archaic nonsensical system that needs to go. I've yet to hear a good reason of why it should stick around.

I think that maybe I can possibly do that(perhaps). I can think of a couple scenarios. Keep in mind states were never meant to hand out their electors in a winner take all manner. I'm assuming that practice would end.

1) The national vote is very close. A Florida recount is one thing a national one would create chaos.

2) Third party spoiler. Another unlikely scenario but it's bound to happen sooner or later. I have to think for instance that if Nader had won an elector that that elector would have voted for Gore.

3) Rigging elections. The Presidential elections are almost impossible to rig for 2 main reasons A) The elections are ran locally and B) because a vote only has impact within that state.

Maybe that's not enough to keep the electoral college but looking around at the way elections go in the world number 3 just might be.

 

[UGLI baby]

That probably came off as a little too strong. What I mean is that unless they just didn't pay attention at all, they knew they were voting for a racist candidate, and that means that they were alright with racism existing. In my view, that portends mild racism. I understand your view that it does not.

To clarify though, I don't view myself as post-racism. I think pretty much everyone in this country has a little bit if mild racism. For me, I feel it as a positive feeling when I see people of color succeeding or doing something I view as out of the normally portrayed stereotype for them. It's not a bad thing, it'd just something that exists.

Louis ck talked about it in his snl monologue, it's long, but I think it portrays the mild racism I'm talking about.

[video=youtube_share;crjrWF-RRlg]https://youtu.be/crjrWF-RRlg

I didn't watch the video, but I totally reject the idea of "mild racism" or everyone being a little bit racist.

Either you are racist and because of that you devalue people of another race than you, or you aren't racist.

The world right now wants everyone to be freaked out that they might be racist, sexist, or homophobic, when in reality it's pretty freaking obvious if you are any of those things.

 

[LogGrad98]

I think I can possibly do that. I can think of a couple scenarios. Keep in mind states were never meant to hand out their electors in a winner take all manner. I'm assuming that practice would end.

1) The national vote is very close. A Florida recount is one thing a national one would create chaos.

2) Third party spoiler. Another unlikely scenario but it's bound to happen sooner or later. I have to think for instance that if Nader had won an elector that that elector would have voted for Gore.

3) Rigging elections. The Presidential elections are almost impossible to rig for 2 main reasons A) The elections are ran locally and B) because a vote only has impact within that state.

Maybe that's not enough to keep the electoral college but looking around at the way elections go in the world number 3 just might be.

I think they could still have local control of elections, I do not see that as being a purely electoral college "thing".

I would be in favor of modifying the electoral college so every state apportions their electors according to the % of the popular vote garnered by each candidate. So in Utah it would have been like 1 to each of Clinton and McMullin and 4 to Trump.

Here is the wiki page about faithless electors, who do not vote for the candidate to whom they are pledged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

This part is interesting:

On 22 occasions, 179 electors have not cast their votes for President or Vice President as prescribed by the legislature of the state they represented. Of those, 71 electors changed their votes because the candidate to whom they were pledged died before the electoral ballot (1872, 1912). Two electors chose to abstain from voting for any candidate (1812, 2000).[1] The remaining 106 were changed by the elector's personal interest, or perhaps by accident. Usually, the faithless electors act alone. An exception was the 1836 election, in which all 23 Virginia electors acted together.

The 1836 election was the only occasion when faithless electors altered the outcome of the electoral college vote. The Democrat ticket won states with 170 of the 294 electoral votes, but the 23 Virginia electors abstained in the vote for Vice President, so the Democrat candidate, Richard Mentor Johnson, got only 147 (exactly half), and was not elected. However, Johnson was elected Vice President by the U.S. Senate.

and this...

1 – 2004 election: An anonymous Minnesota elector, pledged for Democrats John Kerry and John Edwards, cast his or her presidential vote for John Ewards [sic],[7] rather than Kerry, presumably by accident.[8] (All of Minnesota's electors cast their vice presidential ballots for John Edwards.) Minnesota's electors cast secret ballots, so unless one of the electors claims responsibility, it is unlikely the identity of the faithless elector will ever be known. As a result of this incident, Minnesota Statutes were amended to provide for public balloting of the electors' votes and invalidation of a vote cast for someone other than the candidate to whom the elector is pledged.[4]

John Ewards. Really.

 

[LogGrad98]

I'd like to see the following changes for the electoral college/election system of the US:

1) Electoral votes per state is CAPPED at the numbers as we now calculate them (according to population), but are ACTUALLY assigned based on voter turn-out. So Utah could have a MAX of 6 electors, but if only half of the eligible voters turned out then it would only get 3 electors in the current election. Could also do this on registered voters, if people register but do not vote then it could reduce the electors a state would get.

2) Electors are apportioned according to the popular vote in every state. So in Utah it would have been 4 for Trump, 1 each for Clinton and McMullin. In California it would have been 34 for Clinton, 18 for Trump, 2 for Johnson, and 1 for Stein.

3) States still control the elections locally as they do now.

4) Standardize voter registration and have ALL districts in EVERY state provide the SAME options to vote, instead of currently where it isn't even always the same county by county in a given state. Provide MULTIPLE options to vote with clearly delineated timelines.

Or just go to a popular vote. However I can see how this would just push so much power into the population centers and really leave the smaller communities out in the wind.

 

[b_line]

I didn't watch the video, but I totally reject the idea of "mild racism" or everyone being a little bit racist.

Either you are racist and because of that you devalue people of another race than you, or you aren't racist.

The world right now wants everyone to be freaked out that they might be racist, sexist, or homophobic, when in reality it's pretty freaking obvious if you are any of those things.

Then watch the video. It's not what you're thinking. I'm not saying people who are mildly racist are secretly hating black people, just that they have engendered stereotypes that they live with.

The Trump vote did show a racist undertone though. Like I said earlier, not everyone who voted for Trump is racist, but every racist likely voted for Trump.

 

[b_line]

Chappelles monologue on snl was awesome.

 

[fgcamel]

I'd like to see the following changes for the electoral college/election system of the US:

1) Electoral votes per state is CAPPED at the numbers as we now calculate them (according to population), but are ACTUALLY assigned based on voter turn-out. So Utah could have a MAX of 6 electors, but if only half of the eligible voters turned out then it would only get 3 electors in the current election. Could also do this on registered voters, if people register but do not vote then it could reduce the electors a state would get.

2) Electors are apportioned according to the popular vote in every state. So in Utah it would have been 4 for Trump, 1 each for Clinton and McMullin. In California it would have been 34 for Clinton, 18 for Trump, 2 for Johnson, and 1 for Stein.

I'd be interested to see what this election would have looked like with these rules.

 

[LogGrad98]

Then watch the video. It's not what you're thinking. I'm not saying people who are mildly racist are secretly hating black people, just that they have engendered stereotypes that they live with.

The Trump vote did show a racist undertone though. Like I said earlier, not everyone who voted for Trump is racist, but every racist likely voted for Trump.

The thing is EVERYONE has engendered stereotypes they live with, because it is how our brains work. Sterotypes are useful in facilitating reasoning.

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/onlyhuman/2008/04/neurology-of-stereotypes_24.cfm

The trick is learning to ignore our impulse to stereotype when it comes to other individuals or groups. If you look at what is being said about Trump supporters it is largely based on stereotypes that can be proven patently false for SOME people, but not false for ALL people, which is the core of a stereotype to begin with.