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General NBA Craziness and How it Applies to Utah

Cappy_Smurf said:
We also had the best offseason last year after GS and not only got to the playoffs but won a series in our first time back. We won 51 games with one of the most injured teams in the league, and had just Hill and Favors stayed healthy, we are probably a 55-60 win team. Now, if someone puts together a 55-60 win team and that is seen as incompetent/not doing enough, I just don't get that perspective.

Also, the salary floor is 90% of the cap, so being under the floor isn't as extreme as people make it sound. Not only that, but the Nets just used cap space to acquire a recent #2 pick simply by taking a bad contract that the Lakers signed JUST LAST YEAR. Cap space seems to be back to being valuable again, and as for me, I'd rather be a fan of a team that called that right than to be a Laker/Blazer fan who's FO misjudged the rising cap and threw money around to the point they now have to dump assets to fix their mistakes.

Some people questioned trading the #12 pick for a player that could leave in a year, but now some fans are saying DL didn't do enough to keep Hayward. Can't win. Absolutely nothing wrong with what DL did this last year and I hope he continues to spend wisely.
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Capps like fly to fly paper.

Winning means opening the wallet eventually. Nobody of sound mind argues that. Gordon must have questions about whether that will happen here; not the other stuff you continually reinforce. Is this a good basketball program? Yes. Is it one that will $$pry$$ open the window when it's time? Nobody has any evidence to say Yes with confidence I'm not surprised G is torn.
 
LoPo said:
You need to read the whole trade

NY gets Bledsoe and #4 and get to dump Noah ($18 million per year)

Phoenix gets Favors, #24 and gets to dump Bledsoe and Dudley ($25 million per year)

We get KP but have to take Noah and Dudley

Its far fetched for sure, but there is logic behind it.

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If we replace Diaw for Exum to PHX in this deal it becomes more plausible.
 
Zulu said:
If we replace Diaw for Exum to PHX in this deal it becomes more plausible.
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You are probably right. I extended the idea to send Lyles to NY because they were really high on him 2 years ago.

Maybe we could add Hood or Exum, but we are taking on loads of salary with Noah and Dudley. Pretty risky trade for us. If Hayward doesnt stay for the KP/ Gobert experience, we would be limited in our ability to add to them.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
NAOS said:
Capps like fly to fly paper.

Winning means opening the wallet eventually. Nobody of sound mind argues that. Gordon must have questions about whether that will happen here; not the other stuff you continually reinforce. Is this a good basketball program? Yes. Is it one that will $$pry$$ open the window when it's time? Nobody has any evidence to say Yes with confidence I'm not surprised G is torn.
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Right, we should have opened our wallets. Like the Lakers and Blazers.
Sound minds understand that maintaining cap space has a purpose. It does you no good to spend just to be spending. That's how you get to the point of wasting a #2 pick to dump Timothy Mozgov a year after signing him. You have to wait on the right opportunity, regardless of how much time that takes. I'm sure blazer players are all very impressed with their FO's willingness to spend.

I won't pretend to know what Gordon thinks about Utah's spending, but I do know Kevin Durant was up 3-1 on a 73 win warrior team, well on his way to playing for a ring, and he choked it away and then left a championship caliber roster, only to hear cries from the fans about what a terrible job that FO did in putting together that roster. Sometimes you're screwed no matter what you do, but you simply can't spend stupid just to appease a player with a poor understanding of how teams operate within a salary cap.

Just for kicks, exactly which move last year gets us any farther in the playoffs than we got? Fans were throwing a fit we didn't go after Lou Will. Ended up not making the least little bit of difference, yet we're still hearing the complaints.
 
Zulu said:
If we replace Diaw for Exum to PHX in this deal it becomes more plausible.
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If favors hadn't got hurt I could see it. But as of now if I'm PHO I don't drop that #4 unless I get KP back. If this deal did happen I see Indiana jumping in it to get more back for PG. The more stars on the move the more assets in the pot. Today could get real crazy

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Cappy_Smurf said:
Right, we should have opened our wallets. Like the Lakers and Blazers.
Sound minds understand that maintaining cap space has a purpose. It does you no good to spend just to be spending. That's how you get to the point of wasting a #2 pick to dump Timothy Mozgov a year after signing him. You have to wait on the right opportunity, regardless of how much time that takes. I'm sure blazer players are all very impressed with their FO's willingness to spend.

I won't pretend to know what Gordon thinks about Utah's spending, but I do know Kevin Durant was up 3-1 on a 73 win warrior team, well on his way to playing for a ring, and he choked it away and then left a championship caliber roster, only to hear cries from the fans about what a terrible job that FO did in putting together that roster. Sometimes you're screwed no matter what you do, but you simply can't spend stupid just to appease a player with a poor understanding of how teams operate within a salary cap.

Just for kicks, exactly which move last year gets us any farther in the playoffs than we got? Fans were throwing a fit we didn't go after Lou Will. Ended up not making the least little bit of difference, yet we're still hearing the complaints.
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Instead of Hill you trade for Teague. More regular season wins, we face GS a round later.
 
Cappy_Smurf said:
Right, we should have opened our wallets. Like the Lakers and Blazers.
Sound minds understand that maintaining cap space has a purpose. It does you no good to spend just to be spending. That's how you get to the point of wasting a #2 pick to dump Timothy Mozgov a year after signing him. You have to wait on the right opportunity, regardless of how much time that takes. I'm sure blazer players are all very impressed with their FO's willingness to spend.

I won't pretend to know what Gordon thinks about Utah's spending, but I do know Kevin Durant was up 3-1 on a 73 win warrior team, well on his way to playing for a ring, and he choked it away and then left a championship caliber roster, only to hear cries from the fans about what a terrible job that FO did in putting together that roster. Sometimes you're screwed no matter what you do, but you simply can't spend stupid just to appease a player with a poor understanding of how teams operate within a salary cap.

Just for kicks, exactly which move last year gets us any farther in the playoffs than we got? Fans were throwing a fit we didn't go after Lou Will. Ended up not making the least little bit of difference, yet we're still hearing the complaints.
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I'm not (temporarily) back so that I can re-engage in JFC squabbles. I will just go ahead and claim that the axes of G's tornness comes down to questions of spending + being in GSW's conference. On the first one, the FO has a lot of responsibility in creating those questions.... and here we are. This is not a claim that is any more speculative or "out there" that what's in your post history.

For the record, last offseason isn't a problem for me. It was the one before that; and the reasons for being upset still stand (and DL himself has admitted fault... even if you won't hear it). I imagine those older reasons will fully re-emerge with increased volume if G decides to leave.
 
NAOS said:
I'm not (temporarily) back so that I can re-engage in JFC squabbles. I will just go ahead and claim that the axes of G's tornness comes down to questions of spending + being in GSW's conference. On the first one, the FO has a lot of responsibility in creating those questions.... and here we are. This is not a claim that is any more speculative or "out there" that what's in your post history.

For the record, last offseason isn't a problem for me. It was the one before that; and the reasons for being upset still stand (and DL himself has admitted fault... even if you won't hear it). I imagine those older reasons will fully re-emerge with increased volume if G decides to leave.
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I'm glad you're back for a little bit.

btw if Gordon leaves we go back into money saving mode and preserving cap space and flexibility for the big day when we go all in. And that is how we will live at the salary floor for another 5 years.

For the record... I do not think any of the deals we would have done two years ago would have helped us make our case. I think the East basically being vacated in a year when Lebron leaves is the biggest factor when you combine it with the warriors. He can go to the Celtics and become the Buffalo Bills.
 
LoPo said:
Why taking shots NAOS? What gives? You disappear for a few months and come back talking trash? That insecure eh?

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
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Why? Because you obviously lack 2 things:

1. Important knowledge about the workings of the NBA
2. Self-awareness of what you don't know

...and yet you're busy as hell over here spinning out trash.

Learn more. Write less.
 
NAOS said:
Why? Because you obviously lack 2 things:

1. Important knowledge about the workings of the NBA
2. Self-awareness of what you don't know

...and yet you're busy as hell over here spinning out trash.

Learn more. Write less.
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the issue is clearly Phoenix would just cut us out of the deal and keep KP... their goal is to get a second star to go with Booker (not a star yet but headed that way).
 
NAOS said:
I hear you, but we were beneath the salary floor last year. Gordon must have questions about our willingness to spend. A little splash now (as long as it's reasonable) might be a good idea. Make a move that shows we are further increasing our arms, and that past frugalness was about waiting for THIS window.
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We had a great off season last summer. One of the best in the league. So many teams gave so many bad contracts last summer. Portland, LA, Detroit, MKE... There was a legit reason for them not to spend last summer - giving Favors/Hill a R&E. They had to try it IMO. You can fault them for not succeeding but it takes 2 to tango in this situation.
 
stitches said:
We had a great off season last summer. One of the best in the league. So many teams gave so many bad contracts last summer. Portland, LA, Detroit, MKE... There was a legit reason for them not to spend last summer - giving Favors/Hill a R&E. They had to try it IMO. You can fault them for not succeeding but it takes 2 to tango in this situation.
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We have both said it a thousand times... last offseason was not the problem... it was the offseason prior to that.

If we made a signing that year and lost in the first round plus had another player maybe we make it to the 3 seed this year and potentially challenge to get into the Western Conference Finals.

The thing that hurts the most is Dante not becoming a star (not all his fault). If he was a budding star like we thought he could be then Hayward stays we don't kill assets to get Hill and we are in a much better situation.
 
NAOS said:
I'm not (temporarily) back so that I can re-engage in JFC squabbles.
Click to expand...

NAOS said:
Why? Because you obviously lack 2 things:

1. Important knowledge about the workings of the NBA
2. Self-awareness of what you don't know

...and yet you're busy as hell over here spinning out trash.

Learn more. Write less.
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*cough*
 
stitches said:
We had a great off season last summer. One of the best in the league. So many teams gave so many bad contracts last summer. Portland, LA, Detroit, MKE... There was a legit reason for them not to spend last summer - giving Favors/Hill a R&E. They had to try it IMO. You can fault them for not succeeding but it takes 2 to tango in this situation.
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Yep, and some of the same people criticizing our spending were also complaining about trading a pick for a player that could leave in a year. Maybe Utah could have made a big move a year sooner, but you can't force teams to trade their difference makers and you can't force FAs to sign here.

Most of the complaining from HH and Naos last year was about not spending on mid-level talent, when maintaining cap space makes it easier to make a trade if the chance comes along for a difference maker. Just because DL hasn't yet found that opportunity, doesn't mean we should blow all our cap space on the Jeremy Lins and Lou Williams of the league.

Regardless, if it wasn't this issue, fans will always find something to complain about when things don't go their way. All you have to do is bring up OKC and Durant, and people come out of the woodwork to blame management/ownership for Durant leaving a team that had a legit shot at a ring for multiple years.

DL has certainly made some mistakes, as do all GMs, but when a player leaves a team that's capable of winning 55-60 games, there's probably not a lot you could have done differently that would have mattered, and you should get credit for all you did right.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
We have both said it a thousand times... last offseason was not the problem... it was the offseason prior to that.

If we made a signing that year and lost in the first round plus had another player maybe we make it to the 3 seed this year and potentially challenge to get into the Western Conference Finals.

The thing that hurts the most is Dante not becoming a star (not all his fault). If he was a budding star like we thought he could be then Hayward stays we don't kill assets to get Hill and we are in a much better situation.
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Whose fault is it then? He had a choice to play for his national team, as Hayward passed up recently. He has a choice how he practices, what he does on the court, how he prepares himself both physically and mentally for games. I would argue that if it isn't 100% his fault it is at least 90%, give him a 5% break for a fluke injury (in a game he did not have to play in, hence the low percentage) and maybe 5% what the team needed at the moment limiting his PT or something, but that's it. He has to own that **** and then do something to fix it. Put up or shut up, as it were. Go big or go home. Whatever cliche you like his overall performance is on him.
 
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