Official Sign DeAndre Jordan Thread (Note from Jazzfanz: Thread not official)

[GVC]

Um, no. Is it that hard to think conceptually for you?

So, "He's taller" is the conceptual argument I should be shooting for?

Oh, and the "trusty old eyeball test".

Worthless.

 

[Sneakers]

So, "He's taller" is the conceptual argument I should be shooting for?

Oh, and the "trusty old eyeball test".

Worthless.

Watching and studying games and footage is worthless?

Haha. You're not even trying anymore.

I forgot basketball games were played in the spreadsheets.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

uh huh. Your contribution to this thread: Height is all that matters.

I've responded to that. You've yet to respond to the stats illustrating quite clearly how mediocre Big Al is operating in the low post. In fact, no one has. It's blind support for Big Al, and irrational hatred for Paul Millsap.

I'm still waiting for something, anything, substantive ("HE'S TALLER" doesn't count). I'm open minded and intelligent enough to change my mind if presented with compelling evidence, but non has surfaced.

I'm generally lukewarm on Fat Al but how much of his apparent liability on the defensive end based on statistics is due to the fact that he's playing a lot of time at the 5 which is not his best position? Something to consider, no? I would love to see Al at the 4 with Favors at the 5 as he's a ton better defensively and can slide in behind Al when needed, which probably would be often.

But that would mean Millsap moves to the 3 because I don't see him getting benched and rightfully so.

 

[billyshelby]

And, just for fun, here's a rundown of the PPP on post ups for qualified (according to NBA.com) NBA bigs (those who played the majority of their minutes at the 4 and 5 according to 82games.com) who averaged 15+ points per game this season:

A. Stoudemire (25.3 PPG): 1.08 PPP on post ups
D. Nowitzki (23.0): 1.13
D. Howard (22.9): 0.93
B. Griffin (22.5): 0.9
L. Aldridge (21.8): 0.87
A. Bargnani (21.4): 0.95
B. Lopez (20.4): 0.96
K. Love (20.2): 0.91
Z. Randolph (20.1): 0.9
D. West (18.9): 0.94
P. Gasol (18.8): 0.91
A. Jefferson (18.6): 0.89
C. Bosh (18.7): 0.85
L. Scola (18.3): 0.86
P. Millsap (17.3): 1.05
J. Smith (16.5): 0.78
D. Lee (16.5): 0.78
A. Horford (15.3): 0.85
E. Brand (15.0): 0.98

That makes Big Al 13th of 19 on this list. Far from elite.

A number of these guys don't post up very much -- Milsap, Bargnani, even Dirk -- so I'm not sure exactly what ranking 13th on that list says about Al's post game. But when I look at those numbers, he tracks right with Randolph, Griffin, Gasol, and Bosh. I guess that's not elite company.

 

[My2Cents]

Just looking deeper. Do you have anything to say about the stats I've posted? If not, why post at all?

I'll just use the same argument you used. TS% is worthless, +/- is worthless, postup stats are worthless and since you can't control who else is on the floor at the same time, on either side of the ball, or how well they are playing, team stats are worthless. How's that?

 

[GVC]

A number of these guys don't post up very much -- Milsap, Bargnani, even Dirk -- so I'm not sure exactly what ranking 13th on that list says about Al's post game. But when I look at those numbers, he tracks right with Randolph, Griffin, Gasol, and Bosh. I guess that's not elite company.

And the other number that shows he's just barely at league average in post up opportunities (with nothing said of his poor passing out of the post)? That makes him elite?

Look, the guy is simply not an elite low post player.

 

[GVC]

I'll just use the same argument you used. TS% is worthless, +/- is worthless, postup stats are worthless and since you can't control who else is on the floor at the same time, on either side of the ball, or how well they are playing, team stats are worthless. How's that?

A swing and a miss. I'm not sure you understand PER enough, but even if you did, using that stat alone, while ignoring ALL other indicators would make you a fool of the highest order.

 

[billyshelby]

And, just for fun, here's a rundown of the PPP on post ups for qualified (according to NBA.com) NBA bigs (those who played the majority of their minutes at the 4 and 5 according to 82games.com) who averaged 15+ points per game this season:

A. Stoudemire (25.3 PPG): 1.08 PPP on post ups
D. Nowitzki (23.0): 1.13
D. Howard (22.9): 0.93
B. Griffin (22.5): 0.9
L. Aldridge (21.8): 0.87
A. Bargnani (21.4): 0.95
B. Lopez (20.4): 0.96
K. Love (20.2): 0.91
Z. Randolph (20.1): 0.9
D. West (18.9): 0.94
P. Gasol (18.8): 0.91
A. Jefferson (18.6): 0.89
C. Bosh (18.7): 0.85
L. Scola (18.3): 0.86
P. Millsap (17.3): 1.05
J. Smith (16.5): 0.78
D. Lee (16.5): 0.78
A. Horford (15.3): 0.85
E. Brand (15.0): 0.98

That makes Big Al 13th of 19 on this list. Far from elite.

This list is pretty illuminating. I guess Barnagni, Elton Brand, Brook Lopez, Paul Millsap, and David West are the best post players in the game. I had no idea they had better post games than Dwight Howard, Pao Gasol, Zach Randolph, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, and Al.

I take everything back. You're a genius.

 

[GVC]

Watching and studying games and footage is worthless?

Haha. You're not even trying anymore.

I forgot basketball games were played in the spreadsheets.

When did I say that? Big Al is soft on film. Doesn't draw fouls on film. Can't pass out of the post on film. Is terrible in transition on film. Is a chucker on film.

Oh, he's also taller than Millsap on film. Bravo.

 

[GVC]

This list is pretty illuminating. I guess Barnagni, Elton Brand, Brook Lopez, Paul Millsap, and David West are the best post players in the game. I had no idea they had better post games than Dwight Howard, Pao Gasol, Zach Randolph, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, and Al.

I take everything back. You're a genius.

So what makes Big Al an "elite" low post player? I present evidence that he's not. You present nothing.

This is all very reminiscent of your CJ Miles arguments.

Just wait 'til next year...

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

GVC,

Answer my ****ing question.

 

[Sneakers]

When did I say that. Big Al is soft on film. Doesn't draw fouls on film. Can't pass out of the post on film. Is terrible in transition on film. Is a chucker on film.

Oh, he's also taller than Millsap on film. Bravo.

What you fail to understand is i'm not disagreeing with you on any of this. Do you even know what you're arguing with me about? You're just on some sort of raging blood lust right now. My first post in this thread was so innocuous too.

 

[GVC]

I'm generally lukewarm on Fat Al but how much of his apparent liability on the defensive end based on statistics is due to the fact that he's playing a lot of time at the 5 which is not his best position? Something to consider, no? I would love to see Al at the 4 with Favors at the 5 as he's a ton better defensively and can slide in behind Al when needed, which probably would be often.

But that would mean Millsap moves to the 3 because I don't see him getting benched and rightfully so.

I'm all for trying this approach, sure. And I think I'd much rather have Millsap at the 3 to start the season than trade him for an older, costlier and (quite possibly) less efficient Danny Granger. It may well work.

I entered this thread to challenge the notion that Big Al is an elite offensive low post player. He has done very little in his career to live up to this representation. He is not (as of right now) an elite offensive low post player. Maybe he hits the weights this offseason with Millsap, comes back stronger, more aggressive, and magically more intelligent. It's possible, and I hope it happens.

As I've said before, unless an obvious trade comes the Jazz's way, I'd rather stand pat and see what a starting frontcourt of Favors-Big Al-Millsap can do, especially since the Jazz aren;t winning anything next year.

 

[billyshelby]

So what makes Big Al an "elite" low post player? I present evidence that he's not. You present nothing.

This is all very reminiscent of your CJ Miles arguments.

Just wait 'til next year...

You presented "evidence" that his PPP on Post Ups is basically identical to four of the best post players in the game -- Pao, Zach, Blake, and Bosh. He's not even that far from Howard, arguably the best true post up player in the game. The guys at the top of that list are opportunistic post guys -- Barnagni, Nowitski, West. They catch the right matchup, they post, but that's not how they make their living. Those dudes are shooters.

Stick with your TS% and adjusted +/- arguments. At least you can distort the significance of those stats. With this argument, you're just proving Al is elite without even understanding that's what you're doing.

 

[GVC]

What you fail to understand is i'm not disagreeing with you on any of this. Do you even know what you're arguing with me about? You're just on some sort of raging blood lust right now. My first post in this thread was so innocuous too.

I just re-read your first two posts:

1. Paul Millsap has too much of an ego to accept the bench role that best suits him.
2. Big Al deserves to start because he's taller than Millsap. It has nothing to do with being entitled to a starting job.

As stupid now as they were then.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I'm all for trying this approach, sure. And I think I'd much rather have Millsap at the 3 to start the season than trade him for an older, costlier and (quite possibly) less efficient Danny Granger. It may well work.

I entered this thread to challenge the notion that Big Al is an elite offensive low post player. He has done very little in his career to live up to this representation. He is not (as of right now) an elite offensive low post player. Maybe he hits the weights this offseason with Millsap, comes back stronger, more aggressive, and magically more intelligent. It's possible, and I hope it happens.

As I've said before, unless an obvious trade comes the Jazz's way, I'd rather stand pat and see what a starting frontcourt of Favors-Big Al-Millsap can do, especially since the Jazz aren;t winning anything next year.

Agreed. I want to see what the first 30 games brings us next year and if it's a debacle like, quite frankly, I expect, we need to trade, trade, trade to get cap room/expirings and draft picks. Miles' (if we pick him up) expiring, trade him. Okur's expiring, trade him. Harris' sorry ***, trade him, especially if we get Irving somehow or Knight. Jefferson, ditto.

Millsap's too efficient, too strong of a pro, and too cheap to shop, well, in comparison to those other numbnuts.

 

[GVC]

You presented "evidence" that his PPP on Post Ups is basically identical to four of the best post players in the game -- Pao, Zach, Blake, and Bosh. He's not even that far from Howard, arguably the best true post up player in the game. The guys at the top of that list are opportunistic post guys -- Barnagni, Nowitski, West. They catch the right matchup, they post, but that's not how they make their living. Those dudes are shooters.

Stick with your TS% and adjusted +/- arguments. At least you can distort the significance of those stats. With this argument, you're just proving Al is elite without even understanding that's what you're doing.

League average is NOT elite. Sorry. Chris Bosh makes his living off ISOs, Pao has a diverse game from the post and, gasp, is an excellent passer, Zach, again, is better than Big Al offensively across the board, Blake was a rookie who draws fouls, is much better in isolation situations and in transition. Those guys bring much more to the game than just shooting from the low post. And still, they're equal to or better than Big Al in the post.

What makes Big Al elite in the low post?

 

[GVC]

How does one "distort" the significance of TS%? Big Al is not efficient when he goes up for a shot. He also happens to be a terrible passer fro the post. No distortion is necessary.

 

[Sneakers]

I just re-read your first two posts:

1. Paul Millsap has too much of an ego to accept the bench role that best suits him.
2. Big Al deserves to start because he's taller than Millsap. It has nothing to do with being entitled to a starting job.

As stupid now as they were then.

Yes I think Millsap would be an excellent 6th man, but his ego has him convinced he's a starting PF in this league, dammit!

So you would rather start Favors and Millsap than Favors and Jefferson. Make our front court even smaller. That's just as stupid as starting an undersized front court has always been. How successful have undersized front-courts been in recent years? Why would this suddenly be the exception? Buh..buh becuzzz i wike Milllsap =(( isn't a reason.

In the end, we just disagree. You're not my professor and I don't have to write a damn essay justifying myself to you. You think my opinion is stupid, well I think yours is retarded. So there.

 

[My2Cents]

A swing and a miss. I'm not sure you understand PER enough, but even if you did, using that stat alone, while ignoring ALL other indicators would make you a fool of the highest order.

I was being facetious. But PER is also an indicator, as is the fact that Jefferson averaged 21.5 and 11 since the all-star break, an indicator of improvement as he got comfortable in the system. To ignore the positives while focusing soley on negative indicators would make you fool. I'm not hanging my hat on PER, I just find it funny that you reject it out of hand because it is contrary to your point of view.