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Rudy Gobert has got to go

LoPo said:
So you are saying Derrick Favors and eventually Enes Kanter ended up being as good or better than Deron Williams?

Really?

I was for that trade, but I thought Favors would pan out better than just a solid starter.

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Quin Murderface conditioned the scenario with a 5 year span after the trade. Considering DWill lost his game faster than Steve Francis, I absolutely think both Kanter and Favors played better over that time period and the Jazz won that trade. Many consider that trade from the Nets one of the worst of all time, too.
 
People talk about getting good talent, or getting three star players, as the way to contention. Too often star player synonymizes with 'good scorer.' There's plenty of precedent to see that strategy doesn't always translate. If you have a star player who's a star despite his offensive production, then that's a true complementary gem that you have. It gives you the freedom to have two other guys who may be more elite offensively (easier to find), without diminishing anything from their skills or compromising what they bring to the table. You just get a lot more flexibility.

If you're forming a band, it's hard to find a drummer. Our discussion here is like wanting to toss out a skilled drummer because "hey I know this guy who told me he plays guitar."
 
Archie Moses said:
Quin Murderface conditioned the scenario with a 5 year span after the trade. Considering DWill lost his game faster than Steve Francis, I absolutely think both Kanter and Favors played better over that time period and the Jazz won that trade. Many consider that trade from the Nets one of the worst of all time, too.
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That would be an interesting overall analysis.

Deron over the 5 years after the trade even at his worst was better than Kanter. Because we got Favors and eventually Kanter, we misused Millsap and let him walk. If you take Millsap and Deron vs Favors and Kanter over the 5 years since the trade, Deron and Millsap destroy them.

And don't forget, we let AK walk not long after the trade because of our new direction.

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Archie Moses said:
Dude, we can start with the Jazz trading Deron Williams to the Nets.
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Exactly. This is the perfect example of a team getting less in return than they did by trading the star. Of course DWill fell apart, but the Jazz got a couple average non-Championship pieces in the lottery. You could maybe argue that Favors was a top 30 player one year of his career. This was a fleecing of the Nets and it still didn't help them get any closer to a championship. Maybe in this case since D-Will ended up injured it was a wash, but definitely not trading a Star player for like value.
 
infection said:
People talk about getting good talent, or getting three star players, as the way to contention. Too often star player synonymizes with 'good scorer.' There's plenty of precedent to see that strategy doesn't always translate. If you have a star player who's a star despite his offensive production, then that's a true complementary gem that you have. It gives you the freedom to have two other guys who may be more elite offensively (easier to find), without diminishing anything from their skills or compromising what they bring to the table. You just get a lot more flexibility.

If you're forming a band, it's hard to find a drummer. Our discussion here is like wanting to toss out a skilled drummer because "hey I know this guy who told me he plays guitar."
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Excellent analogy. Rudy is very underappreciated by casual fans because he's not always up front and center. People get mesmerized by the front man or the guitar solo but forget that the drummer keeps everything together in a band. A good drummer is incredibly valuable and valued by actual musicians. Rudy is basically the perfect player on a championship level team. He just needs to be in a system that plays to his strengths offensively since he is a bit limited. But luckily the kind of system he thrives in is a modern one that is also insanely efficient. So you don't really sacrifice anything by trading mid range jumpers for more dunks and 3's.
 
Can we just take a minute to think about Archie's point?

So the Jazz "fleeced" the Nets by trading their franchise player, and right now, what they have left from that is Derrick Favors (who will not be here next year and would do well to get any 1st round pick for him) and half of Ricky Rubio who is incapatible with our roster/system (by way of the asset that became Enes Kanter that became an OKC 1st/two 2nds).

At the apex of the value of those assets, we had Derrick Favors starting at C and playing pretty good, Marvin Williams playing out of his mind (and setting up his role moving forward right before leaving), and Enes Kanter trying to make a record for worst +/- ever in the only tanking year in the franchise's history.

Yeah, the Jazz clearly got equal value on that deal.
 
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The trade was equal, you could argue it both ways. The game was different back then, traditional PFs were still in vogue. Favors was oozing with potential at the time, he would have went #1 in some drafts due to his length and athleticism. The type of player you have to tank hard and ugly to hope to acquire.
 
Jazz4ever said:
The trade was equal, you could argue it both ways. The game was different back then, traditional PFs were still in vogue. Favors was oozing with potential at the time, he would have went #1 in some drafts due to his length and athleticism. The type of player you have to tank hard and ugly to hope to acquire.
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They lost a 20/10 All-NBA gold medalist that was the engine to winning 50 games a year in order to acquire some assets that ended up being nothing in the big picture and struggling to even achieve a winning record ever since. That's not equal value.
 
That draft pick was more valuable than is being given credit for. Klay Thompson, Kawhi and Butler were all drafted later than Kanter. Just because we blew the pic, doesn't mean the pic wasn' valuable, because if used in the right way it was!
 
sahlensguy said:
That draft pick was more valuable than is being given credit for. Klay Thompson, Kawhi and Butler were all drafted later than Kanter. Just because we blew the pic, doesn't mean the pic wasn' valuable, because if used in the right way it was!
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Yeah. But it wasn't. That's the whole point.
 
I'll give you an example where it worked out for the team losing a star:

The Grizzlies getting the rights to Marc Gasol in the Pau deal.

However, it is worth bearing in mind that nobody thought the Grizzlies were getting anything approaching equal value at the time.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Yeah. But it wasn't. That's the whole point.
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The point is, you can trade your star and make it out on top. I'm not saying the Jazz killed it, but they got the better deal. Having a mediocre, and rapidly declining max player on the books vs what the Jazz got in return is something hardly anyone in the right mind would want.
 
Archie Moses said:
The point is, you can trade your star and make it out on top. I'm not saying the Jazz killed it, but they got the better deal. Having a mediocre, and rapidly declining max player on the books vs what the Jazz got in return is something hardly anyone in the right mind would want.
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In no universe can you convince me the Jazz losing their best player in over a decade and more than half of their games since is any kind of ****ing win.
 
NUMBERICA said:
You really didn't understand what he was saying because you just proved his point. Hard.
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Here's a better example of trading a star player and getting 2 in return. The Clips traded a declining star Baron Davis and a first rounder to the Cavs. The Cavs traded their declining star Mo Williams (he was still putting up 15 a game) and Jamario Moon. The first round pick ended up being Kyrie Irving.
Other trades that worked out better for one team by trading their star.
Jamison for Carter.
Wallace and Okur for draft pick that became Lillard.
Barkley for Horny
Mourning for Carter.
Webber for Richmond
Divac for Kobe
Chandler for Brand
Finley for Kidd
Billups for Iverson
The Melo to NY trade - Danilo, Chandler and picks
Allen for Payton.
Kaman, Gordon, Aminu, pick for Paul
 
We can’t trade Rudy for some superstar — name a team that’s trading their star for Rudy. What we can trade is Rudy for is a potential star or a draft pick. So we could trade him for a Porzingis, or a Jahlil Okafor or Dante Exum.

Or we could trade him for a couple solid role players which would be ****ing genius.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Draft picks are wishes, and you know the saying about wishes n ****.
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At the time the pic and Favors was a haul for Dwill who wanted out. That's the bottom line. Mismanaging those assets doesn't mean that we botched the trade. Those are two separate issues.
 
NUMBERICA said:
In no universe can you convince me the Jazz losing their best player in over a decade and more than half of their games since is any kind of ****ing win.
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I don't need to convince you. It's commonly known as a terrible trade on the Nets part and win on the Jazz's. Google it.
 
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