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Dispelling some myths about this off-season

infection

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As a preface, the Jazz franchise is operating within a profitability window. That is to say that there is a certain minimum level of competitiveness that must be retained in order to turn a profit for the team through television revenue, ticket sales and merchandising. On the other side, there is a maximum level of competitiveness we may be able to achieve while still being able to stay afloat fiscally. Graphically speaking, the relationship between level of competition to cost in dollars is not linear. In other words, the competitive difference (from a fan’s perspective) between a first-round exit and a second-round exit is negligible, but the financial difference (in payroll) between such is rather significant. The only exception to the above is the chance to put together a core of players that legitimately contends for a title (top four), only in this scenario could the increased spending be justified as a worthy financial risk with a high probability of coming out on top.

With that being said, here are some of the following issues we have, which I understand I may be criticized for as being negative or pessimistic.

Myth #1: Andrei’s trade value will increase toward the February deadline

Only two options exist in which Andrei could be dealt at the deadline: 1) a contender wishing to add another piece to make their final push and 2) a team under the cap looking to acquire talent by absorbing bad salary.

Option #1 is less feasible as Andrei is an expiring contract. The best-case scenario for the Jazz would be receiving other expiring contracts, which only has feasibility in a theoretical sense. Since it is unlikely we would be able to receive so much salary back as expiring, the only way the Jazz would be willing to pull the trigger is if we were receiving back what we felt was better talent. In such a case, the contending team will not deal better talent for lesser talent. Should this be the case, the only sweetener for the Jazz brass would be potential talent (young players or draft picks). We will not deal a known (Andrei) for an unknown (draft picks or young players), especially considering that contending teams are less likely to have less supply of these due to their draft position.

Option #2 is also ill-conceived since Andrei, especially as being an upcoming free agent, would offer little to a team under the cap (i.e. rebuilding). As a result, there’s nothing a rebuilding team would be willing to offer us that would entice the front office (i.e. they will not offer potential lottery picks for Andrei).

Bottom line: Andrei will not be traded, unless it is in a complete salary dump that renders us virtually nothing in return but luxury tax savings.

Myth #2: Carlos Boozer can/will be used in a sign-and-trade

A sign-and-trade requires three parties to agree on very complex issues, which you will hear about ad nauseum from Kevin O’Connor. In the end, it will necessitate bringing back salary that we won’t want. There will be no deal available in which we will (whether rightfully or not) feel that the risk would be better than just re-signing him or just letting him walk. Compounding our problem, we will be rather defeatist about actually getting anything of value for Boozer and will see the Boozer decision more simply as either bringing him back or letting him walk.

Myth #3: We will use the mid-level exception

The cost of bringing in any free agent will never financially be recouped by the franchise. $5.5 million given to a free agent will never be made back by the few more games in the W column. To use the entire (or even partial) exception, with regard to where our current squad is at, would be economically irresponsible and would have to be considered a loss from day 1. Of the free agents that are available and that we would have a chance at recruiting, none will enough of an impact to move this team out of the first or second round. It would be more costly to the franchise to bring in such a player than it would to suffer through the fickle disappointment and backlash of fans.

Bottom line: A maximum of 2.5 million of the MLE will be used, but most likely scenario none will be used

Myth #4: We will fix the big-man issue

As #3 is a no-go and we will not obtain anything from #2, it leaves our options pretty thin for a 4 or 5 man outside of minimum contract players or undrafted players. We will hope to improve internally be doing a season-long experiment with Fesenko and Koufos. We will not sign Jarron Collins, to avoid that we are “giving up”, so to speak, but rather he will be invited to training camp and we will passively opt not to release him. As a PR move, KOC will likely down-play bringing Jarron to camp as an “answer” to our big-man problems, but instead will focus on Jarron being a hard worker, a good defender, and someone with knowledge of the system who’s a great addition to our bench (while subtly implying that they’re not done making moves – but in reality they will be).

Bottom line: Jarron Collins will be back in a Jazz uniform for the 2010-2011 season

Myth #5: We have a plan as to which players we will bring back and will execute that plan aggressively

Since it is too early to know what the market may be offering some of our players (Matthews, Korver and Boozer), it is still uncertain as to which of our free agents we are serious about having return. We don’t want to act too soon and overpay for any of them, so expect to see any re-signings happen later in August. Should somebody offer Boozer or Korver a contract before then, we will let either one walk. In the case of Korver, we will play up the amount of talent we have at the position and the drafting of Hayward and the other guy. In the case of Boozer, we will continue to talk about how it takes both sides to agree, how Boozer made the decision to leave, and how we signed Millsap to a big contract because we believe he’s every bit as capable.

Matthews, on the other hand, will be brought back. It’s doubtful he will garner that much interest in free agency, but we either wait it out a bit before re-signing him or we will wait and match.

Bottom line: Nobody knows whether or not Korver or Boozer will be back, not even the front office

Myth #6: We can use our trade exceptions

We obtained these trade exceptions by dumping salary (and talent) so that we could avoid the luxury tax. By opting to take back more salary, we will have defeated the purpose of the initial two trades (with the exception of avoiding the luxury tax, which is as of yet uncertain where we will stand this season).

Don’t shoot the messenger.
 
...how about Myth #7: The NBA players Union and the Owners will iron out an agreement, with bothsides being very happy and play not being stopped!

(by the way, infection.....you seem to be a pretty intelligent guy....what's your take/observation on the looming work stoppage when the current collective bargaining agreement ends?)
 
please tell me again why a team that wants to clear cap for next year wont be interested in AK? Yeah Utah would like to get ak's salary off the books but if they can bring in a talented player that has a future with this team and an expiring contract they will do it, because one way or the other they will be paying that 17 something million dollars whether it goes to AK or a couple of players.
 
please tell me again why a team that wants to clear cap for next year wont be interested in AK? Yeah Utah would like to get ak's salary off the books but if they can bring in a talented player that has a future with this team and an expiring contract they will do it, because one way or the other they will be paying that 17 something million dollars whether it goes to AK or a couple of players.

Because if they're wanting to "clear space" it's by dumping a guy with a big contract, i.e. someone the Jazz want to avoid. In other words, nobody is looking to give up a guy who's better than Andrei that has less than 3 years left on his deal, unless you're implying you'd rather have someone worse than Andrei for two years longer.
 
Great thread.... I'll make a few comments on Myth #1 since I'm still reading this. There is one other scenario by which the Jazz could move AK, and that is a disgruntled/estranged-player scenario. Previously PHX offered the Jazz Marion for AK because Marion was determined to leave Phoenix. Separately, I think a team like Washington would trade Gilbert Arenas for AK due to the obvious bad history there, but as you mentioned, this would not give back any cap relief--quite the opposite. One other possibility is Miami trading Beasley and using some of its cap space to absorb AK. Suppose Miami succeeds in signing Amare Stoudemire. Miami might then see AK as a better supporting player to Wade and Amare than Beasley. The Jazz could possibly structure some type of trade with Miami.

AK to Toronto for Tukoglu might get discussed at some point.

If PHX is losing Amare and still likes AK, a deal could be made involving players like Barbosa and ???

The Jazz look at this situation, and you can understand why they hope AK will return to the level he played at 5 years ago.
 
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Regarding Myth #2, the Jazz will either make an offer to Boozer or let him walk. A sign-and-trade is difficult to work out. The Jazz stole Boozer from Cleveland (a move that in retrospect may have ruined that franchise, assuming LeBron leaves), and now someone else will steal Boozer from the Jazz. The Jazz might counter by making an offer on another player like Rudy Gay. David Lee is a possibility as well, but it depends on whether the Jazz think he's a step up from Millsap/AK at the PF.
 
Umm, you're dead wrong on AK's value. IF the Jazz are UNDER the laxury tax threshold (or very near) then AK's expiring DOES increase in value as the deadline approaches.

1. I agree a contending team is not going to offer equal value. At best, we could expect a backup and a #1 draft pick (which would be mid-to-late 20's). And there probably won't be too many contenders with $17M in space. We'd have to take back an equal amount in salaries. Still, say a contender has an injured player (or overpaid backup) whose contract is also set to expire. They feel they need some additional help at SF/PF. We trade them Andrei for their expiring garbage or players we subsequently buy out (like was done with Ilgauskas), perhaps one decent young player and their 2011 1st rounder.

2. As for a non-contender...if we let Boozer and Korver walk, the Jazz get very near the tax threshold. That means Utah CAN afford to take back nearly $17M in salary. So Team X, coming up on the deadline, realizes they are out of contention, the owner decides to rebuild and dump salary. Team X trades player(s) with 2-3 years remaining on their contracts, plus a lottery-protected 2012 pick. I realize 2011 doesn't have the same class of FA's coming out, but there will be teams looking to dump veterans, especially if they're making room for a rookie that has come on strong in the 1st half of the season. Another possibility is trading AK for a player making say $9M and realizing the remaining amount in tax/cap savings. Salaries don't have to match if the other team has cap space to cover the difference.
 
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Regarding Myth #4, there are very few bigs in the league that could take the Jazz to a higher level (or assure that they stay at the same level). The teams that are about to spend big money on Bosh, Amare and Boozer may not get their money's worth. If they're such cornerstone players, why do they need LeBron or Wade in order to contend? The Jazz probbaly did try hard to get Cousins and maybe Favors. Now that this attempt has failed there's a hole in the front court. However, I doubt Jaron Collins comes back as long as Memo and Fess are doing pretty well. There are a number of back-up PFs in free agency the Jazz could look at. Koufos is still in the picture too.
 
Umm, you're dead wrong on AK's value. IF the Jazz are UNDER the laxury tax threshold (or very near) then AK's expiring DOES increase in value as the deadline approaches.

1. I agree a contending team is not going to offer equal value. At best, we could expect a backup and a #1 draft pick (which would be mid-to-late 20's). And there probably won't be too many contenders with $17M in space. We'd have to take back an equal amount in salaries. Still, say a contender has an injured player (or overpaid backup) whose contract is also set to expire. They feel they need some additional help at SF/PF. We trade them Andrei for garbage, perhaps one decent young player and their 2011 1st rounder.

2. As for a non-contender...if we let Boozer and Korver walk, the Jazz get very near the tax threshold. That means Utah CAN afford to take back nearly $17M in salary. So Team X, coming up on the deadline, realizes they are out of contention, the owner decides to rebuild and dump salary. Team X trades player(s) with 2-3 years remaining on their contracts, plus a lottery-protected 2012 pick. I realize 2011 doesn't have the same class of FA's coming out, but there will be teams looking to dump veterans, especially if they're making room for a rookie that has come on strong in the 1st half of the season. Another possibility is trading AK for a player making say $9M and realizing the remaining amount in tax/cap savings. Salaries don't have to match if the other team has cap space to cover the difference.

If I'm the Suns or the Spurs, I'd take a look at AK in a trade, since my window of opportunity to contend is shutting fast and AK could be a shot in the arm on a veteran team.
 
My disagreements with your "Myths."

1. Teams to sign players assuming that they will have good team chemistry, or they have rookies that shine and make veterans with higher contracts expendable (Look at the Hornets all of a sudden considering trading Chris Paul.)

Also, don't forget how the financial situations of the team owners figures in. If a team isn't winning, and has a good player and the owner is strapped, they will be willing to deal superior players to save money at the end of the year. It happens all over the league.

2. The Jazz don't have to take back a dollar for dollar salary match in a trade with Boozer. In a situation like this off season with multiple teams being far under the Salary Cap, there will be teams that can deal players with smaller contracts to take back guys with big salaries, with out matching contracts. OKC, Miami, NYC, New Jersey, LAC, Chicago etc. all have the ability to take on a max contract, and give a guy back to the Jazz for a smaller Salary, just like the Harpring/Maynor for Fehse trade. In addition, the Jazz could receive back another trade exception to sweeten the deal.

3. The Jazz have to use the MLE to fill roster spots unless they are planning on bringing in 4 minimum salary players to start the season. Won't happen. I suspect the Jazz have some targets for the MLE and the LLE and will use them both.

4. Whether they resign Boozer, or use him in a sign and trade, the Jazz will acquire an above average player in the post during the off season. They may not be as good as Boozer, but the Jazz aren't going into the season with a healthy line up of Millsap/Koufos and Fesenko/Nobody.

5. I agree that the Jazz aren't sure who all will they will try to bring back, and I agree that Wes Matthews is about a 95% lock to come back. As far as Fes, Boozer and Korver go, they will probably wait for the offers to roll in, and then react. I don't think that's a bad thing though really, I don't think losing either Fes or Korver would cripple the Jazz, and nobody knows what kind of a look Boozer is going to get. My guess is the Jazz have an offer ready for Boozer come July 1, but he will wait to hear what other people have to offer.

6. It's hard to say what the Jazz will do, they may decide to save the money those offer, but if they have a chance to push themselves into contender status by using them, they will make more money off of the extra playoff games they'll play than they would have had they saved the cash initially.
 
My disagreements with your "Myths."

1. Teams to sign players assuming that they will have good team chemistry, or they have rookies that shine and make veterans with higher contracts expendable (Look at the Hornets all of a sudden considering trading Chris Paul.)

Examples: Pau Gasol to the Lakers, Jason Richardson to the Suns, Kevin Martin to the Rockets, Mike Miller to whomever, Corey Maggette to the Bucks, Richard Jefferson to the Spurs, etc. (Just agreeing with you.)
 
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Here's why I think the Jazz will trade Kirilenko and a future 1st to a team under the cap and receive nothing of value in return. Let's say we resign Wes Matthews for around $4 million per year, resign Gaines to compete for backup PG (have to sign someone to fill the 3rd PG-role) resign Fes to his $1 million qualifying offer (if not Fes we'll most likely sign someone for atleast the veteran's minimum) and sign Jeremy Evans or some other corpse for the standard $473k that 2nd-round draft picks get. That leaves us with 13 players (including Memo) and just $2 million under the luxury tax-threshhold, not the kind of money that will get you much of an addition to the team.

So, we'll have a team of:
PG Williams, Price/Gaines
SG Matthews Miles
SF Kirilenko Hayward Evans
PF Millsap Kirilenko*
C Fesenko Koufos Okur-inj
with possibly a $2 million per player to add in. How does that look? To me, that's a late-seed playoff team if everyone stays healthy. That's why I think the Jazz will overpay someone to take AK off their hands, probably take back a stiff making about $10 million less and then use the extra money to resign Boozer (if he runs out of options) or another free agent.
 
I understand the other European guy (not Tomic) we have the rights to will be in this year's summer league. If he is worth keeping on our roster, I don't see the need for Boozer. Even if he isn't, I'd rather we use AK as our backup PF. KoC would consider AK as too valuable to just give away...
 
I understand the other European guy (not Tomic) we have the rights to will be in this year's summer league. If he is worth keeping on our roster, I don't see the need for Boozer. Even if he isn't, I'd rather we use AK as our backup PF. KoC would consider AK as too valuable to just give away...

Think of this guy as a potential Linas Kleiza-type back up forward, not really a replacement for Boozer.
 
My disagreements with your "Myths."

1. Teams to sign players assuming that they will have good team chemistry, or they have rookies that shine and make veterans with higher contracts expendable (Look at the Hornets all of a sudden considering trading Chris Paul.)

Also, don't forget how the financial situations of the team owners figures in. If a team isn't winning, and has a good player and the owner is strapped, they will be willing to deal superior players to save money at the end of the year. It happens all over the league.

It may happen all over the league, but it isn't happening here. Especially considering how much we overvalue Andrei. If we won't trade Andrei for Marion, Stoudemire, Carter, Ginobili, etc., then there's no way on earth we will deal him for what we're going to get offered this year.

2. The Jazz don't have to take back a dollar for dollar salary match in a trade with Boozer. In a situation like this off season with multiple teams being far under the Salary Cap, there will be teams that can deal players with smaller contracts to take back guys with big salaries, with out matching contracts. OKC, Miami, NYC, New Jersey, LAC, Chicago etc. all have the ability to take on a max contract, and give a guy back to the Jazz for a smaller Salary, just like the Harpring/Maynor for Fehse trade. In addition, the Jazz could receive back another trade exception to sweeten the deal.

I understand. The problem, however, is that these teams are far enough under the cap that they can sign Boozer outright. Of course they would want to dump a few guys off to clear their salary, but the Jazz won't take the salary dump when they can just let him go, especially considering the other team wouldn't have to sweeten the deal for us -- they'd just have to sign Boozer.

3. The Jazz have to use the MLE to fill roster spots unless they are planning on bringing in 4 minimum salary players to start the season. Won't happen. I suspect the Jazz have some targets for the MLE and the LLE and will use them both.

They don't have targets, which is part of the myth that everyone will eat up so that when training camp opens and our roster is the same, we change our perspective from "they've got guys they're eye-balling" to "they tried their damnedest but it just didn't work out". It's an easy sell.

4. Whether they resign Boozer, or use him in a sign and trade, the Jazz will acquire an above average player in the post during the off season. They may not be as good as Boozer, but the Jazz aren't going into the season with a healthy line up of Millsap/Koufos and Fesenko/Nobody.

Don't hold your breath.

5. I agree that the Jazz aren't sure who all will they will try to bring back, and I agree that Wes Matthews is about a 95% lock to come back. As far as Fes, Boozer and Korver go, they will probably wait for the offers to roll in, and then react. I don't think that's a bad thing though really, I don't think losing either Fes or Korver would cripple the Jazz, and nobody knows what kind of a look Boozer is going to get. My guess is the Jazz have an offer ready for Boozer come July 1, but he will wait to hear what other people have to offer.

The only way possible the Jazz have an offer by July 1st is if they decided against bringing him back and low-ball him to push him somewhere else and for PR so that they can say they were aggressive in trying to ink him.

6. It's hard to say what the Jazz will do, they may decide to save the money those offer, but if they have a chance to push themselves into contender status by using them, they will make more money off of the extra playoff games they'll play than they would have had they saved the cash initially.

They will not be able to put pieces together to make us a contender, which is why our ultimate goal is to stay within the window of profitability.

If I'm the Suns or the Spurs, I'd take a look at AK in a trade, since my window of opportunity to contend is shutting fast and AK could be a shot in the arm on a veteran team.

Could be, but again there's nothing of value we could receive from these teams.

Umm, you're dead wrong on AK's value. IF the Jazz are UNDER the laxury tax threshold (or very near) then AK's expiring DOES increase in value as the deadline approaches.

1. I agree a contending team is not going to offer equal value. At best, we could expect a backup and a #1 draft pick (which would be mid-to-late 20's). And there probably won't be too many contenders with $17M in space. We'd have to take back an equal amount in salaries. Still, say a contender has an injured player (or overpaid backup) whose contract is also set to expire. They feel they need some additional help at SF/PF. We trade them Andrei for their expiring garbage or players we subsequently buy out (like was done with Ilgauskas), perhaps one decent young player and their 2011 1st rounder.

The value they place on Andrei is far greater than garbage + a first round pick.

2. As for a non-contender...if we let Boozer and Korver walk, the Jazz get very near the tax threshold. That means Utah CAN afford to take back nearly $17M in salary. So Team X, coming up on the deadline, realizes they are out of contention, the owner decides to rebuild and dump salary. Team X trades player(s) with 2-3 years remaining on their contracts, plus a lottery-protected 2012 pick. I realize 2011 doesn't have the same class of FA's coming out, but there will be teams looking to dump veterans, especially if they're making room for a rookie that has come on strong in the 1st half of the season. Another possibility is trading AK for a player making say $9M and realizing the remaining amount in tax/cap savings. Salaries don't have to match if the other team has cap space to cover the difference.

The Jazz will not commit themselves to a longer contract than Andrei's (even if it is much smaller in size).

...I think the Jazz will trade Kirilenko and a future 1st to a team under the cap and receive nothing of value in return.

This is what I wish more people understood. If anything, it will be us having to add incentive to deals with Andrei. Imagine the Ronnie Brewer deal. Now imagine the Ronnie Brewer deal where we throw in a draft pick -- this is more along the lines of what we're looking at.

I know that a few of my ideas are contradictory, such as overvaluing Andrei in some deals and then completely dumping him in others, but this is honestly the vibe we get from the front office. Either we balk at a deal where we think Andrei is a key part to our team or we get desperate to clear salary and dump him at any cost (but this will only be the case if we will be over the luxury tax).

In all reality, however, Andrei will remain on the team for the duration of his contract.
 
In other words the OP is just saying the FO won't do much this offseason. Like we needed a huge post to remind ourselves to keep our expecttaions tempered. The next time the Jazz do a big trade to bolster the team, it would be the first time, in what, 7-10 years?Maybe even more.
 
In other words the OP is just saying the FO won't do much this offseason. Like we needed a huge post to remind ourselves to keep our expecttaions tempered. The next time the Jazz do a big trade to bolster the team, it would be the first time, in what, 7-10 years?Maybe even more.

Hey man the Girichek(spellcheck) for Korver trade was a damn big trade by Utah Jazz standards....
 
A sign-and-trade requires three parties to agree on very complex issues, which you will hear about ad nauseum from Kevin O’Connor. In the end, it will necessitate bringing back salary that we won’t want

Not true. They can trade him for a trade exception with a team under the cap, sorta like the Maynor OKC deal and a Boozer trade exception + AK expiring might end up being pretty big trading chips.
 
Here's why I think the Jazz will trade Kirilenko and a future 1st to a team under the cap and receive nothing of value in return. Let's say we resign Wes Matthews for around $4 million per year, resign Gaines to compete for backup PG (have to sign someone to fill the 3rd PG-role) resign Fes to his $1 million qualifying offer (if not Fes we'll most likely sign someone for atleast the veteran's minimum) and sign Jeremy Evans or some other corpse for the standard $473k that 2nd-round draft picks get. That leaves us with 13 players (including Memo) and just $2 million under the luxury tax-threshhold, not the kind of money that will get you much of an addition to the team.

So, we'll have a team of:
PG Williams, Price/Gaines
SG Matthews Miles
SF Kirilenko Hayward Evans
PF Millsap Kirilenko*
C Fesenko Koufos Okur-inj
with possibly a $2 million per player to add in. How does that look? To me, that's a late-seed playoff team if everyone stays healthy. That's why I think the Jazz will overpay someone to take AK off their hands, probably take back a stiff making about $10 million less and then use the extra money to resign Boozer (if he runs out of options) or another free agent.
I would prefer a PF rotation of Millsap/Kirilenko if they are healthy, and I think that they would do about as well as if Boozer were here. Millsap's and AK's defense will compensate for the lower scoring. But there are signs that such a compensation isn't all that significant, given that Millsap scored at a higher rate than Boozer in the playoffs--and, not surprisingly, logged steals and blocks at a higher rate also. In any case, Boozer has had his chance to distinguish himself in the playoffs, and he has not done so. Buh-bye.
 
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