Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
Franklin, you Mormon?
Tha Mormons
- Thread starter franklin
- Start date
That's been answered. You're not insecure about my superior command of scripture and/or aren't planning on sending missionaries after me are you?
You never answered:
For some very interesting reading on DNA and the inhabitants of ancient Mesoamerica look here https://www.fairblog.org/2009/02/06/current-biology-smgf-and-lamanites/
In a nutshell, there is a mDNA halogroup X and several subhalogroups belonging to this X group that, as of now, no link to any of the currently believed ancestors of ancient Mesoamercans can be made. That's to say, halogroup X and it's sub halogroups cannot be made to fit into the currently accepted theory that all Mesoamericans came to the new world from Asia via the Bering Strait.
There have been a few "hits" in groups which carry this rare halogroup X mDNA, most notably these are coming from Europe, the Middle East and interestingly enough, Finland.
Here is a very interesting quote from a scientific paper written on the subject:
That starts to hit pretty close to home...
Halogroup X is actually quite rare in Mesoamerican samples which also lends creedence to Colton's take that if immigrants from the Middle East did come to the new world it was a small sample of the overall population and they were integrated with the current population making their mDNA very rare in Mesoamerican populations.
In a nutshell, there is a mDNA halogroup X and several subhalogroups belonging to this X group that, as of now, no link to any of the currently believed ancestors of ancient Mesoamercans can be made. That's to say, halogroup X and it's sub halogroups cannot be made to fit into the currently accepted theory that all Mesoamericans came to the new world from Asia via the Bering Strait.
There have been a few "hits" in groups which carry this rare halogroup X mDNA, most notably these are coming from Europe, the Middle East and interestingly enough, Finland.
Here is a very interesting quote from a scientific paper written on the subject:
That starts to hit pretty close to home...
Halogroup X is actually quite rare in Mesoamerican samples which also lends creedence to Colton's take that if immigrants from the Middle East did come to the new world it was a small sample of the overall population and they were integrated with the current population making their mDNA very rare in Mesoamerican populations.
I've read it about Mayans and it always seemed pretty damn silly.
I'm too lazy to find a link. Google toy horse + olmec or toltec or something. Archaeological finds in restrictive countries are kind of hard to come by, but it's there. The wheeled toy with the jaguar head is the easiest picture to come up with so don't confuse it.
According to the Book of Mormon, it is recorded that 3 groups of people came to the American Continent.
A group called the Jaredites came from "Babylon" area around the time of the tower of Babel.
A group called the Mulekites came from Jerusalem area around 600 B.C.
A group that split between Nephites and Lamanites but from one two families - Lehi and Ishmael, with a friend that tagged along - Zoram. All from Jerusalem around 500 B.C.
We don't know the heritage of the Jaredites or if it was mixed.
We don't know the heritage of the Mulekites or if it was mixed.
We have a decent idea of the heritage of the families of Ishmael and Lehi, although we are guessing that Lehi's wife, and Ishmael's wife were Jewish or Israelites.
Lets assume for arguments sake that everything in the Book of Mormon is as it says it is, and as I believe it is. Even with this in mind, the whole DNA issue is not simple and will take either luck or "help" to pin anything down even. Also like Colton said, this is just for "fun" and will probably not affect anyone believing, or disbelieving the Book of Mormon or anything associated with it.
A group called the Jaredites came from "Babylon" area around the time of the tower of Babel.
A group called the Mulekites came from Jerusalem area around 600 B.C.
A group that split between Nephites and Lamanites but from one two families - Lehi and Ishmael, with a friend that tagged along - Zoram. All from Jerusalem around 500 B.C.
We don't know the heritage of the Jaredites or if it was mixed.
We don't know the heritage of the Mulekites or if it was mixed.
We have a decent idea of the heritage of the families of Ishmael and Lehi, although we are guessing that Lehi's wife, and Ishmael's wife were Jewish or Israelites.
Lets assume for arguments sake that everything in the Book of Mormon is as it says it is, and as I believe it is. Even with this in mind, the whole DNA issue is not simple and will take either luck or "help" to pin anything down even. Also like Colton said, this is just for "fun" and will probably not affect anyone believing, or disbelieving the Book of Mormon or anything associated with it.
Craig K. Manscill
Well-Known Member
Colton, you may need an editor. Or perhaps a firmer grasp on your wandering mind, from which come leaping assumptions, several which are unecessary. I am LDS, a strong believer in fact, and for you to go further and presume reasons why I am not LDS is interesting. I teach several courses at BYU, I've held several callings in the church, my sons are on missions, and so on. So let's keep things pat. 
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That said, you're right, usually it's not just horses / metal weaponry and other historical deficiencies that cause disbelief, it's many other issues. On archeology in particular, we have quite the debacle, there's no use in denying it. I hope that someday archaeologists can find evidence of ***, cow, horses, ox, domesticated sheep, swine goats, elephants,wheat, barley, silk, steel, swords, scimitars, chariots,etc ever existing in pre-Columbian Book of Mormon areas. If they're mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where are they in history? C'mon history!
I only bring this up because, frankly, I get asked this all the time in class by students and I have to come up with the worst explanations. Maybe you've experienced this. Doesn't a part of you die inside when you say, "absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence"? I tell that to my students, I say, "Yes, we have scoured the contentment with years of archeology and haven't found those things, but they might still be there!" Or "Yes, there is no trace of ancient Hebrew DNA in native Americans, but it must have vanished!" Colton, it doesn't work, they start leaving the church.
I think you think the same as me, we WANT the church to be true, so we WANT to find good evidence for these things. If that means believing random PDF files and LDS-only research while ignoring the rest of the scientific community, then so be it. Maybe we should accept the truth, that God is testing us and removed these evidences so believing is harder. The harder belief is, the more of a test of faith it is! I hope that helps, good luck Colton, stay strong.
- Craig
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That said, you're right, usually it's not just horses / metal weaponry and other historical deficiencies that cause disbelief, it's many other issues. On archeology in particular, we have quite the debacle, there's no use in denying it. I hope that someday archaeologists can find evidence of ***, cow, horses, ox, domesticated sheep, swine goats, elephants,wheat, barley, silk, steel, swords, scimitars, chariots,etc ever existing in pre-Columbian Book of Mormon areas. If they're mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where are they in history? C'mon history!
I only bring this up because, frankly, I get asked this all the time in class by students and I have to come up with the worst explanations. Maybe you've experienced this. Doesn't a part of you die inside when you say, "absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence"? I tell that to my students, I say, "Yes, we have scoured the contentment with years of archeology and haven't found those things, but they might still be there!" Or "Yes, there is no trace of ancient Hebrew DNA in native Americans, but it must have vanished!" Colton, it doesn't work, they start leaving the church.
I think you think the same as me, we WANT the church to be true, so we WANT to find good evidence for these things. If that means believing random PDF files and LDS-only research while ignoring the rest of the scientific community, then so be it. Maybe we should accept the truth, that God is testing us and removed these evidences so believing is harder. The harder belief is, the more of a test of faith it is!
I hope that helps, good luck Colton, stay strong. - Craig
Craig K. Manscill
Well-Known Member
Although I would LOVE for there to be evidence of chariots or wheeled vehicles, there simply isn't for that time period, let's stay honest here. No remains of them whatsoever. So let's keep that in mind. Those toys, according to many archeologists, may be post-Columbian like other objects with the toys.
What I think is that "chariot" was the best word Joseph Smith could find to describe chaski message runners and llama caravans.
- Craig
Virtually everybody knows the original J-Smoove didn't want to be racist and call them Mesican Donkeys. You can't win for losing with you people. Gosh.
Your such a polite person.
Colton, you may need an editor. Or perhaps a firmer grasp on your wandering mind, from which come leaping assumptions, several which are unecessary. I am LDS, a strong believer in fact, and for you to go further and presume reasons why I am not LDS is interesting. I teach several courses at BYU, I've held several callings in the church, my sons are on missions, and so on. So let's keep things pat.
OK, I'm calling B.S. on this. You used a U of U email address when you registered from jazzfanz and you regularly post from U of U IP addresses. You have never posted from a byu.edu IP address. Therefore you most certainly are not a BYU professor. All of your posts have been disparaging towards the Book of Mormon, and towards Mormonism in general. If you lied about being a BYU professor, you are almost certainly also lying about being a member of the church, having kids on missions, and so forth.
I tried to have a serious discussion with you, but you refused to reciprocate. So I'm not going to spend any more time on this.
If by some very remote possibility I'm wrong about this, feel free to email me. You can look up my email address in the hardcopy BYU phone book which gets distributed to faculty and staff each year. I'm the Colton (last name) who is in the Physics Dept. (I really am a BYU professor, you see.) I'll be able to tell immediately from your return address if you are a BYU professor also, and if so I will apologize here profusely.
Cement, end of thread.
Craig K. Manscill
Well-Known Member
We live in SLC and I commute to the Y.
Come by my office sometime in the JSB in office 275G! Sure, on a skeptical surface there seem to be a few indications that I'm not your colleague, but perhaps if you allow yourself to believe, create reasoning to support the contrary, you will find that I've been your colleague all along. For example, perhaps your administrative account falsely interpreted my IP address as U IP when it is actually a BYU IP? Is this outside the realm of possibility? Have you noticed that I bear the username "Craig K. Manscill," which happens to be the same name? If we are to say three letters NHM are referencing the Book of Mormon Nahom, despite numerous other words it could actually be referencing, can't we infer that my username could be a reference that I am indeed "Craig K. Manscill"? And lastly, I may have said some things that can be construed satire, but I am a man, and therefore infallible. So shouldn't you ignore those things I said?
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Most colleagues I know don't believe I'm not their colleague simply because of an IP address. These things are simply not enough (in my mind) to declare me not "Craig K. Manscill". There must be something more.
- Craig
Fail, again. The real Craig Manscill, BYU professor, lives in Lindon, not SLC.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
LOL.
It's funny watching how a desperate Utah student is being owned by Colton.
BYU owning University of Utah AGAIN????????????????!!!!!!!!!!
And it isn't even Football/Basketball season yet!
It's funny watching how a desperate Utah student is being owned by Colton.
BYU owning University of Utah AGAIN????????????????!!!!!!!!!!
And it isn't even Football/Basketball season yet!
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
There are a lot of lil things in the Book of Mormon... Primarily in the first few books... That are just incredible.
Descriptions such as being, "firm as steadfast, as a valley", would not be typical of a Northeastern American familiar with hilly/mountainous regions with many trees. However, such description would be familiar to someone living in a desert region where valleys are what's firm and immovable.
How would a boy without much education and living before google and the knowledge of the middle east that we now have name the burial place of Ishmael "Nahom?" From the Hebrew verb of "to console or feel sorry?"
Why, when leaving Jerusalem and traveling through the wilderness were they instructed to travel without fire? Again, a simple farmer living in northeastern America wouldn't know of the dangers of traveling (and eating) across the Arabian.
However, I believe that if one bases all their faith upon facts, I believe the whole idea of spirituality is lost. The point is to have confidence or a belief in something that you cannot possibly being to describe.
Descriptions such as being, "firm as steadfast, as a valley", would not be typical of a Northeastern American familiar with hilly/mountainous regions with many trees. However, such description would be familiar to someone living in a desert region where valleys are what's firm and immovable.
How would a boy without much education and living before google and the knowledge of the middle east that we now have name the burial place of Ishmael "Nahom?" From the Hebrew verb of "to console or feel sorry?"
Why, when leaving Jerusalem and traveling through the wilderness were they instructed to travel without fire? Again, a simple farmer living in northeastern America wouldn't know of the dangers of traveling (and eating) across the Arabian.
However, I believe that if one bases all their faith upon facts, I believe the whole idea of spirituality is lost. The point is to have confidence or a belief in something that you cannot possibly being to describe.
Craig K. Manscill
Well-Known Member
Wrong, John. Your mind only thinks I'm in Lindon because that's what it interprets whenever it reads "SLC". That kind of thing happens to everybody, you believe stuff like that right?
Nevertheless, your proud use of detective skills to prove I'm not actually "Craig K. Manscill" is quite intriguing. Only at BYU, eh? We certainly have some of the brightest minds, I bet you can move up to cracking codes now.
- Craig