Trump reverses migrant separation policy

[babe]

I disagree with @babe. Lol.

These are refugees from the northern tier of Central American nations. Trump has demonized and dehumanized them. In the separation policy, we simply see the degree that he will go in this dehumanizing campaign. It was painfully easy, and alarming, to understand all this when he ran for the office he now holds. The dynamic was right out there for all to see, particularly if one was informed by a knowledge of history, and a knowledge of how demagogues can come to power within mass democracies undergoing cultural and social changes that often cause fear and anger among elements within that society.

I am not suggesting or predicting that he, or we, are capable of initiating the most extreme measures enacted by that most evil of 20th century leaders. I am simply pointing out the same dynamic is playing out in our country at this time in our history. And ultimately, we need to reject this dynamic. It simply champions and promotes our lesser instincts. It really is a battle for the soul of our nation. If what we see playing out on our southern border is who we really want to be, history will not judge us well. He's doing exactly what he promised he would do, and his meanness and willingness to dehumanize "the other" is an historical dynamic that never ends well.

I would not want to be Jeff Sessions. I would not want to be Steve Miller. Or General Kelly. Or Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen. History will not be kind to these enablers. The judgement will be harsh. They have cast their lot, and they, with their President, are on the wrong side of history.

Return of the Blood Libel(Paul Krugman, NY Times):

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/op...eturn-of-the-blood-libel-Opinion-13018995.php

"The speed of America’s moral descent under Donald Trump is breathtaking. In a matter of months we’ve gone from a nation that stood for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to a nation that tears children from their parents and puts them in cages.

What’s almost equally remarkable about this plunge into barbarism is that it’s not a response to any actual problem. The mass influx of murderers and rapists that Trump talks about, the wave of crime committed by immigrants here are things that simply aren’t happening. They’re just sick fantasies being used to justify real atrocities....

......No, the real crisis is an upsurge in hatred — unreasoning hatred that bears no relationship to anything the victims have done. And anyone making excuses for that hatred — who tries, for example, to turn it into a “both sides” story — is, in effect, an apologist for crimes against humanity."

-------------------------------------------------
I think the historical dynamic that is happening in our country now, and the dynamic in that earlier time and place, that I'm apparently so reluctant to spell out, is very similar, because both are very much rooted in hatred of an "other". But, who am I kidding, I must be beating around the bush, for fear of Godwin's Law. But wait, Godwin himself does protest:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-godwin-godwins-law-20180624-story.html

"By all means cite GL if you think some Nazi comparison is baseless, needlessly inflammatory or hyperbolic. But Godwin’s Law was never meant to block us from challenging the institutionalization of cruelty or the callousness of officials who claim to be just following the law. It definitely wasn’t meant to shield our leaders from being slammed for the current fashion of pitching falsehoods as fact. These behaviors, distressing as they are, may not yet add up to a new Reich, but please forgive me for worrying that they’re the “embryonic form” of a horror we hoped we had put behind us."

A few years ago I could have written analyses like this about Herr Obama or Eva Braun Clinton. sigh.

The minute it looks like Trump is turning ideological or racist to me, rather than talking too loosely from too little information about just managing a problem efficiently, or rolls out a cadre of brown shirts to enforce his regime, I'll tell you. Trump is about as basic and "American" as Andrew Jackson.... old hickory.... but the minute I see him tell the Supreme Court they don't matter, as Jackson did, because he has the army..... or orders someone like the Cherokees off into some wilderness so white gold-seekers can pan their rivers.... well.... I'll keep looking for anything I would consider a valid concern.

He's rolling back some regulations a lot of people thought went too far. It's good for our country to have elections that matter. We should live with the results without losing our minds or turning on one another. We will get to vote again.

 

[One Brow]

I don't have much reason to dispute any of your assertions above, except the voter fraud thing. A person registering twice and voting twice.... we get a few cases prosecuted once in a while. ineligible people voting? I think that is a cottage industry on the Left, but hey..... If we had a lot of noncitizen probable R people out there, maybe it would be a cottage industry on the Right, too. ... So at least try to consider that we really can't track and therefore do not know the extent of voter fraud.

You can't disprove the existence of elves living under the ground of your lawn, either. There just isn't any evidence for the elves, nor for wide-spread voter fraud. It makes no sense to proclaim the latter as fact when you doubt the former.

 

[JazzGal]

A thread in my Facebook news feed from a former missionary companion of mine is talking about how the vast majority of the immigrants are criminals (not just illegals). There are those in the thread who are talking about how all the immigrants should be shot on sight. I keep hearing this comment more and more. I hope it is just people spouting off nonsense, but what are the chances we get to that point?

 

[Zombie]

Come for calling people radical for being upset about draconian immigration policy, stay for jokes about ripping children from their parents and putting them in cages.

 

[babe]

A thread in my Facebook news feed from a former missionary companion of mine is talking about how the vast majority of the immigrants are criminals (not just illegals). There are those in the thread who are talking about how all the immigrants should be shot on sight. I keep hearing this comment more and more. I hope it is just people spouting off nonsense, but what are the chances we get to that point?

In Russia, according to Solzhenitzsyn, during the forties and fifties of the past century, snitches could reliably get anyone thrown into the gulag under any kind of accusation. No chance to face accusers, no legal discovery process, not even a requirement that the State file charges of any kind. The saying by investigators was "What do you mean "Not Guilty? ..... not guilty of anything?"

So in this comment you put forward inflammatory accusations of your own against LDS missionaries, etc.

I can't accept accusations of this kind, either.

I've been on a mission, and have heard no such reports from former missionaries. I agree with Session's assessment of the criticisms coming from political opposition sources because I do have corroborating observations first hand. But really, what does it serve to raise the ante in this level of information.

Tens of thousands of children, over the past few decades, have been given care in US foster homes and contracting care centers which I think actually has provided them a better life than they could have had back in the home country. Where there is abuse, we already have laws, and caregivers can be prosecuted for failing to provide humane care. If there have been cases that cross line, local complaints can be filed with state authorities.... or with federal authorities dealing with the caregivers. Pretty sure that doesn't require an Act of Congress or a Presidential Pen.

The politicization appears to me to be hugely overblown and with a few media hypesters doing their level best to make the most distorted reports they can imagine, and the Press going full steam on exaggerating it beyond that.

I do not actually believe there will be no essentially ignorant people in any classification like the former companion you report, but surely this must be about the stupidest companion you ever had.....

No missionary has competent information on who is criminal and what they have done.... they were out there smiling (hopefully) at everyone and trying to be polite, and probably not dealing drugs or "knocking off gas stations". If you actually know anyone who talks like that, you should move on and close out your association with that person, imo.

 

[babe]

You can't disprove the existence of elves living under the ground of your lawn, either. There just isn't any evidence for the elves, nor for wide-spread voter fraud. It makes no sense to proclaim the latter as fact when you doubt the former.

This is a ridiculous response. I said nothing about elves anywhere and the point about discussing things with no information stands. I did not proclaim any data, and there is no reason to imply I am making any such statement.

the fact is you cannot sustain any claim there is no "widespread voter fraud" when my point is we do need to develop reliable checks against any kind of possible voter fraud. It's called due diligence, bro.

 

[babe]

So here's a positive bit about being a "welcoming state".

uhhmmm. this site won't let me embed it. It is from a humanitarian of some influence.... anyone browsing around his site will be benefitted....

http://khosrowsemnani.com/?p=710

Personally, I have gone through the process of sponsoring immigrants the legal way. One I sponsored is a senior vice president of a substantial enterprise today.

My work has always brought me into close working contact with people from other countries of the highest intellectual and social attributes. On the low end of the prosperity spectrum, I have also known a lot of people coming here on the most meagre prospects.

We are the world-class leader of nations on the immigrant issue. Sure we can do things better. I favor legal immigration and more staff located near the places where we have a lot of interest in immigration.

As a teenager I worked hard on my stamp collection.... I had an uncle whose office dealt with applications for admissions to a major university, and his secretary snipped the stamps off for me..... and I kinda got the sense that this is the land of opportunity above almost any other on the face of this world.

I oppose the theatrical distortions of the issue for base political purposes by anyone. C'mon. Let's do a reasonable discussion.

 

[One Brow]

This is a ridiculous response. I said nothing about elves anywhere and the point about discussing things with no information stands. I did not proclaim any data, and there is no reason to imply I am making any such statement.

the fact is you cannot sustain any claim there is no "widespread voter fraud" when my point is we do need to develop reliable checks against any kind of possible voter fraud. It's called due diligence, bro.

It's self-serving fear-mongering. When someone wears a tin-foil hat to keep out mind-control waves, it's not due diligence. When someone puts their electric fence underground to keep elves from digging under their house, it's not due diligence. Using barriers to turn people away at the ballot box is not due diligence.

 

[babe]

It's self-serving fear-mongering. When someone wears a tin-foil hat to keep out mind-control waves, it's not due diligence. When someone puts their electric fence underground to keep elves from digging under their house, it's not due diligence. Using barriers to turn people away at the ballot box is not due diligence.

Classic nonsense.

no one puts electric fences underground. Do you know anything about physics????? Here you are using stale irrelevant rhetoric that is meaningless to the topic. If I weren't "nice" oh I dunno..... tin foil hats, elves, underground electric fences.... have you heard of the flat earth society. They got your kind of science.

It has been a persistent democratic idea to reject various possible ways to determine voter eligibility. Why not accept some reasonable method and help win voter confidence to comply.

maybe dems don't want a solution to this or some other issues which they think shore up voter support.

nah.... open borders isn't good.... and voter ID is just basically right. You get to vote if you become a citizen and make the oath to uphold the Constitution. If you don't feel that way, why wouldn't you just feel free to go to Venezuela or Cuba, bro? That is a fair question.... and here's the real answer:

Cuba nor Venezuela wouldn't want you. Already got a full slate of guvmint operatives. No room for idealistic intellectual upstarts who think they are the true enlighted cromulists.

It's the ideas of limited governance and maximized human rights, including rights of belief and speech, vouchsafed by the Constitution, that makes a place here for you.

 

[Siro]

Classic nonsense.

no one puts electric fences underground. Do you know anything about physics????? Here you are using stale irrelevant rhetoric that is meaningless to the topic. If I weren't "nice" oh I dunno..... tin foil hats, elves, underground electric fences.... have you heard of the flat earth society. They got your kind of science.

It has been a persistent democratic idea to reject various possible ways to determine voter eligibility. Why not accept some reasonable method and help win voter confidence to comply.

maybe dems don't want a solution to this or some other issues which they think shore up voter support.

nah.... open borders isn't good.... and voter ID is just basically right. You get to vote if you become a citizen and make the oath to uphold the Constitution. If you don't feel that way, why wouldn't you just feel free to go to Venezuela or Cuba, bro? That is a fair question.... and here's the real answer:

Cuba nor Venezuela wouldn't want you. Already got a full slate of guvmint operatives. No room for idealistic intellectual upstarts who think they are the true enlighted cromulists.

It's the ideas of limited governance and maximized human rights, including rights of belief and speech, vouchsafed by the Constitution, that makes a place here for you.

None of that has to do with the millions of fraudulent votes claimed by Trump. That's just a lie, right?

 

[babe]

None of that has to do with the millions of fraudulent votes claimed by Trump. That's just a lie, right?

lessee..... did Trump claim dems got millions of fraudulent votes from non-existent, dead, illegal, non-citizens or paid crews of multiple vote-casters?

I think there's a sort of urban legend air to the subject, as noted above, it has not been thoroughly investigated and independently, objectively or factually verified. I said nobody knows.... well, maybe I'm wrong. If anyone actually knows anything about that subject, it would have to be the people who did it, right?

Trump would not have been announcing the conclusions of an FBI investigation on systematic voter fraud. He would have been bantering in response to nonsensical claims that he must have cheated, or must have gotten help from the Russians to get the votes counted "right". Both of which claims have a little or less basis in objective knowledge.

what is this, two years almost gone by and there's this desperate little band of election deniers here in JFC who don't believe Trump won the election? Or was he really born in Scotland and a Scot citizen ineligible to be Pres?

I do positively know that in the progressive band of political thought, similar to the moral underpinnings of other modern secular socialist theories, the ends justifies the means. It is therefore a moral good if Obama can rally an organization like ACORN to surround whitish neighborhood voting places with an ill-tempered band of thugs with baseball bats. Just as it is, in that whole department of political thought, a moral good to aggressively apply Ayer's principles of public action, as in having internet sites run by dedicated politically-indoctrinated workers who will assert an appropriate party line...even in a site nominally dedicated to some local sports team....

Be there. Be heard. Drown out the ignoramuses. Own the World.

after all, what use is Truth if the world is just spinning the wrong way.

 

[One Brow]

Classic nonsense.

no one puts electric fences underground. Do you know anything about physics?????

You are as on-point as ever. I am not debating the feasibility of underground electric fences, sorry. Your lack of imagination is your problem.

It has been a persistent democratic idea to reject various possible ways to determine voter eligibility. Why not accept some reasonable method and help win voter confidence to comply.

A solution in search of a problem.

You get to vote if you become a citizen and make the oath to uphold the Constitution.

This has nothing to do with voter ID.

It's the ideas of limited governance and maximized human rights,

You mean, limiting governance and maximizing human rights by forcing people to carry something in order to exercise those rights?