The Honesty of Transgender Identity

[Archie Moses]

I recently found out that I am cis-gendered. I had no clue - but once it was explained to me, I had to agree.

I had to Google and I feel like I got Rick Rolled.

 

[JimLes]

This is pretty much exactly what Laurel Hubbard did. She lived as a man for 35 years. Decided to transition and did. Then started competing in weight lifting competitions and winning.

It did not sit well with many and you're acting all shocked.

I gave you examples and you're still blind to them. Wtf.

From a CNN article on this: "Despite setting national junior records as a male weightlifter, Hubbard isn't breaking any rules.

The International Olympic Committee decrees that male-to-female transgender athletes must undergo hormone therapy and demonstrate testosterone levels of below 10 nanomols per liter for at least one year leading up to and during competition.

Such athletes must also declare their "gender identity" is female for a minimum of four years."

So you're trying to argue that this is all a devious ploy? That Laurel Hubbard dishonestly did all this just to win a few tournaments in a sport that's less lucrative than pole vault?

 

[Archie Moses]

From a CNN article on this: "Despite setting national junior records as a male weightlifter, Hubbard isn't breaking any rules.

The International Olympic Committee decrees that male-to-female transgender athletes must undergo hormone therapy and demonstrate testosterone levels of below 10 nanomols per liter for at least one year leading up to and during competition.

Such athletes must also declare their "gender identity" is female for a minimum of four years."

So you're trying to argue that this is all a devious ploy? That Laurel Hubbard dishonestly did all this just to win a few tournaments in a sport that's less lucrative than pole vault?

I don't think it's a ploy at all.

I do, however, think it is unfair for her to compete against women. Having competed against men before makes it that much more obvious as to why. It. Is. Not. Fair.

 

[JimLes]

I don't think it's a ploy at all.

I do, however, think it is unfair for her to compete against women. Having competed against men before makes it that much more obvious as to why. It. Is. Not. Fair.

Life. Is. Not. Fair. Caster Semenya, mentioned above, has hyperandrogenism. Some people are taller than others. Some people are double jointed. Some people can jump higher. You say this is different, but you don't explain how or why. Why is it fair that I have to compete with people who have innate biological advantages?

 

[Archie Moses]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11690125

This was an interesting read. I'm going to do some more digging about the research used in the studies it mentions. I was definitely not familiar with them and I've read things that say completely different things too.

At the end of the day, I believe in science. We still know very little about why things are the way they are, and we're learning more and more.

 

[Archie Moses]

Why is it fair that I have to compete with people who have innate biological advantages?

What do you have to compete in?

 

[Archie Moses]

Life. Is. Not. Fair. Caster Semenya, mentioned above, has hyperandrogenism. Some people are taller than others. Some people are double jointed. Some people can jump higher. You say this is different, but you don't explain how or why. Why is it fair that I have to compete with people who have innate biological advantages?

Are you ok with athletes taking testosterone, oxygen injections, steroids, and drugs to gain a competitive advantage? Why or why not?

 

[JimLes]

Are you ok with athletes taking testosterone, oxygen injections, steroids, and drugs to gain a competitive advantage? Why or why not?

That's a whole other story, but yes. I think we need to stop drug testing and arbitrary differentiation between different substances that athletes use and let everyone do everything. If you want to shrink your balls or give yourself a heart attack, by all means. All I care about is who jumps farther or runs faster.

Arguably the greatest footballer of all time(and by logical extension, the greatest athlete of any kind of all time) Leo Messi was given growth hormones when he was a kid. Isn't that cheating? Isn't that taking hormones to gain a competitive advantage? And before you argue that in his case, he wasn't given hormones because of sports, remember that not one of the women we've been talking about transitioned for that reason either.

Shouldn't he have been forced to play with what he was born with, in his case an HGH deficiency? Why is it OK for Messi to do be given HGH at 12 and not OK for LeBron who's been doing it the last half a decade?

 

[Archie Moses]

That's a whole other story, but yes. I think we need to stop drug testing and arbitrary differentiation between different substances that athletes use and let everyone do everything. If you want to shrink your balls or give yourself a heart attack, by all means. All I care about is who jumps farther or runs faster.

Arguably the greatest footballer of all time(and by logical extension, the greatest athlete of any kind of all time) Leo Messi was given growth hormones when he was a kid. Isn't that cheating? Isn't that taking hormones to gain a competitive advantage? And before you argue that in his case, he wasn't given hormones because of sports, remember that not one of the women we've been talking about transitioned for that reason either.

Shouldn't he have been forced to play with what he was born with, in his case an HGH deficiency? Why is it OK for Messi to do be given HGH at 12 and not OK for LeBron who's been doing it the last half a decade?

I didn't know that about Messi and just read a little about him and his condition and the injections.

I respect your point of views and you certainly make great points. I think our disconnect may just simply be how we look at sports and their parameters and rules. I'm more of a traditional sports fan. I don't want athletes to be able to gain unfair advantages. I want them to use their (for lack of a better phrase) god given talents and work ability to become the best. That's why the best athletes are so idolized. They are not normal. They are the best of what the human species is naturally capable of.


My brother thinks all people should compete in the same sports because he feels humans are equal, so why not? Although you and him have different opinions from mine, I respect them. Who knows, maybe one day I'll change my mind on it too.

 

[JimLes]

I respect your point of views and you certainly make great points. I think our disconnect may just simply be how we look at sports and their parameters and rules. I'm more of a traditional sports fan. I don't want athletes to be able to gain unfair advantages. I want them to use their (for lack of a better phrase) god given talents and work ability to become the best.

I think I've grown more jaded than you about professional sports over the last 15-20 years. I find it hypocritical that we set these artificial and even arbitrary standards for professional athletes as to what we consider "fair" and "unfair" advantages. Obviously, we're a long way from a time where a bookish Jewish lawyer from Bedfordshire, England can be the fastest man in the world and win the Olympic gold at 100m. Professional athletes of our time might well be aliens or a different species. The diets, the exercise, the supplements, the treatments they do are so crazy nowadays. Platelet-rich plasma, microfracture surgery, horse placenta, oxygen tanks, cryochambers and super-berries from Namibia...I mean, even if LeBron isn't taking illegal stuff(but that jawline, though!), the amount of legal stuff he's doing is so far form using god-given talents. And I'm just using him as an example, obviously, everyone at the top level lives these alien lives. But then we hypocritically decide that there's a line somewhere, which is particularly problematic when it comes to substances. Some supplements are okay, some are not. Some make you the greatest athlete in your field, others make you a cheater and a scoundrel. We want these men and women to compete like modern day gladiators, praising those who play through injuries, but cluck our tongues when they cross that arbitrary line between legal and illegal drugs. I mean, how did we decide that getting a blood transfusion before a race was illegal? It's human blood!

This transgender sports argument just seems like another one in the long history of these arbitrary lines. There's nothing noble about sports anymore, and there hasn't been in decades.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

I don't think it's healthy to obsess over identity. I'd rather live with someone making a mistake about my identity than have everyone worry about the countless ways they can offend someone by misjudging their identity.

People often assume I'm hispanic. They'll speak to me in Spanish when I go to Mexican restaurants. I couldn't care less. I have relatives who are bothered by it. As if there's something wrong with Mexicans, or special about their ethnicity.

Like that time you changed your handle.

I don't get people getting upset over somebody mispronouncing their name. People are always afraid to pronounce my last name but I couldn't care less. We always waited in anticipation on our birthdays in elementary to see how it was said during morning anouncements.

Gender is obviously more sensitive but I don't see what the big deal is.

@alt don't you think gender neutral identifying is a bit degrading too at this point in time? I've ran into gay men referring to their bf as partner seemingly in a euphemized or neutralizing manner. That doesn't seem any better to me.

 

[Jazzta]

Imagine how tough this **** is for Spanish people.

???