John Stockton’s dirty little secret
- Thread starter Thee Jazz Fan
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Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
The basketball card bit gave me a chuckle as well.
When you say valid points, you don’t think he was right about Stockton not being great?
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I dont think he ever said Stockton wasnt great, just that he isnt in the same class as the other top PG's. I think that's at least debatable. He has a really good point of Stockton being with Malone for 19 years. Stockton is probably overrated by Jazz fans if we are being honest.
Zombie
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure that point is all that great. You could just as easily say Malone isn't that great becuase he benefited from playing with John for 19 years. I don't think you can knock a player for playing along with other great players.
That said I thought the video was well done and funny. Some fans definitely over rate Stockton, but it seems silly to me that the all time leader in assists shouldn't be considered among all time great PGs.
Malone was clearly better than Stockton.
I think if Paul played with Malone for 19 years, he'd probably be the leader in assist. You could probably say that for a few different PGs. Stockton is a top PG for his longevity, not for actually being the best PG at any given time. You can say Stockton had a top 5 career as a PG, but I dont know if you can say he is a top 5 PG, if that makes sense.
Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
I disagree with that. The only reason the jazz made the finals the first time was because of Stockton. They might’ve won a game seven, but who knows. I’ve seen him take over countless games including that game 6 vs the Rockets. He was capable of averaging 20 a game but felt he was best for the team playmaking for others.
Yes, he played with Malone for 19 years or whatever, but he also played with a ****** roster overall besides Malone, and and no one at that time could beat MJ, nobody.
He’s the all time leader in steals and assists, was a great shooter, and defender till about 94-95 somewhere in there.
The one difference between him and the other great pg’s is they had great rosters around them. Other then Malone and a declining Horny, those jazz teams had a roster of backup at best players around him. The jazz just didn’t spend the money during his time.
Put him on Magic’s Lakers or have him play with Thomas’s Pistons, or have him trade places with Steph Curry.
I’ve always contended that he was the best ever at his position because he did more then anyone with less. All those great pg’s that won titles won because they were blessed with so much talent up and down there rosters. Stockton had Malone and an aging and declining Horny, a couple decent backup worthy players and scrubs.
Stockton was an absolute beast. Payton even said Stockton was the toughest to guard, and that was with one hand. Does that mean he’d have been the best ever if he played with two hands?
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Yeah, that was one of his points that Stockton didnt expand his game as much as he could have.
Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
I remember trying to improve my off hand dribbling. Was my one true weakness growing up, but just couldn’t do it, and I did a lot of dribbling exercises with my off hand, to this day my off hand dribbling is useless. I could be wrong but I just figured it was a genetics thing. I don’t know
Zombie
Well-Known Member
Chris Paul is also an all time great PG so yeah he could probably do what Stockton did, or come close, given the same longevity. I do think that longevity is a 'skill' so to speak of its own. The best ability is availability.
Jack Strop
Well-Known Member
Yes, put any other great PG in a Jazz uni and let him play with Malone. And he might have the assist numbers Stockton did...if he were willingly to be subservient to Karl and sacrifice his game. And if he could maintain that consistency year after year.
But do the same for any other great PF. Put him in a Jazz uni and let him play with Stockton under Sloan's system, which ran the 1/4 P&R to death. Would that PF have similar offensive numbers to Karl in a system where the PF was the #1 option down the court every time?
In either case, the answer is maybe close for a few years, maybe several. But no, Stockton and Malone were two of the best ever and their games and personalities were a perfect fit. Malone made Stockton better. And the reverse is true; Stockton made Malone better.
Sure, longevity contributed to Stockton's overall totals...to put them pretty much out of reach. He AVERAGED 10.5 assists even taking into account his early career and late "decline." Or take his best 5, from '87-'92 when he averaged nearly 14. I really can't see anyone putting up those kind of numbers. Magic Johnson may have come close, but late career decline (had he played longer) would have decreased his average/per. CP3 is the closest today, but still, his averages, even accounting for him playing with Harden, would naturally be expected to decline.
Steals? Yes, longevity kept him at the top. It's likely Jordan would have passed him had MJ not taken his baseball break and played longer. But even if CP3 played another 7 years (to reach 20) he likely wouldn't surpass Stockton in steals. No one else is in the discussion.
Shooting? Stockton averaged 54%/38%. That's just incredible. Is it the best ever? Certainly not. For example, Steph Curry is at 51%/44%. Clearly, John wasn't an elite 3pt shooter. Then again, he played in an era when that wasn't the predominant emphasis. I'd also argue he played in an era when defenders could hand check and play more physical, making shooting tougher than it is today.
But longevity shouldn't be argued as a minus, or to somehow minimize what John did. If anything, it's a testament to his incredible achievements. He had the gaudy averages even when considering the age at which his skills should have declined steeply.
Regretfully, Utah - whether through the Miller's miserly ways, or whether through players just not wanting to play in the state - could never find the missing pieces to win a championship. But Stockton was truly one of the greatest PG's ever. Very best? Well, that's debatable. Magic was truly exceptional for 12 years, scoring included. But Stockton was very, very close.
I suppose you could always make the longevity argument, but Stockton broke the assist record mid-way through his 11th year with 10,142 assists. Paul is entering his 14th season with 8,708 assists. You think it’s all Malone?
Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
You don’t pile up 15,000 assists on the shoulders of one dominant scorers and most of the rest of the roster around him was not good
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Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
Oh and even when Magic had Kareem Abdul-Jabbar he still couldn’t hit 14 assists, that not withstanding the other studs he had to work with compared to What Stockton had. Also Malone shot more Ft’s then anyone I think, how many more assists did Stockton miss out on?
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I would say some significant portion of it was Malone (and never missing games).
Thee Jazz Fan
Well-Known Member
And every timea guy left Utah his career went down hill. And that’s even after idiots like you said the game had passed by Sloan. Stockton just made things easier for all his below average teammates, and he did it better then anyone else ever did it
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framer
Well-Known Member
The real "true dirty secret" is that John Stockton was actually left handed. He played exclusively with his right hand because it was the only way the game challenged him. Had he played with his left, he would have completely broken the timeline, the Jazz would have won 10 consecutive championships, and the NBA would have folded.
That's the truth, if you can handle it.
That's the truth, if you can handle it.
candrew
Well-Known Member
Whatever.
90% of this guy's videos are hater videos...he hates on most of the NBA greats. Either they were jerks or not as good as everyone remembers.
So John Stockton was too right hand dominant. Mariano Rivera had one pitch - and he's the greatest relief pitcher of all time.
90% of this guy's videos are hater videos...he hates on most of the NBA greats. Either they were jerks or not as good as everyone remembers.
So John Stockton was too right hand dominant. Mariano Rivera had one pitch - and he's the greatest relief pitcher of all time.
fishonjazz
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It’s not just longevity though. Look at Stockton’s peak years and cp3 peak years. Who averaged more assists in those years? Who averaged more steals? Who shot better percentage from the field?
Stockton every time. Take longevity out of the equation. Stockton is the better passer, shooter, and defender still.
Longevity is simply icing on the cake. And durability/toughness/playing through injuries and staying good for a long time should absolutely have some sway in a discussion of who was the better player. (I realize that you said this in your post but I just wanted to hammer it home)
So are the Warriors not that great because they play with an all-star starting lineup? Stockton and Malone were both great, both in large part because they had each other and because they worked really hard at making their self better and making the other guy better. To take anything away from either guy because the other guy was also great is straight up wet trash.