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Dennis Lindsey's Biggest Error

Roy_McAvoy

Roy_McAvoy

Well-Known Member
Let me preface with the fact that I think Dennis Lindsey is a good GM and I'm glad to have him. He's still made some mistakes though. Which one was his biggest? Was it,

-Drafting Trey Burke over CJ McCollum?
-Betting that Hayward would resign with the Jazz?
-Drafting Tony Bradley over various other players?
-Letting Millsap walk?
-Standing pat in free agency in 2018 and not being pro active about trying to improve the team.
-Drafting Dante Exum
-Drafting Grayson Allen instead of trading down and then taking Allen or someone like Mitchell Robinson early in the 2nd round.
etc..

I argue it wasn't any of those. I think there were stronger arguments for each of those at the time that hindsight made it look worse.

To me, it was not trading a 1st round pick that became Grayson Allen for Nikola Mirotic when he wanted to come to the Jazz and was on a good contract.

The Bulls traded him & a 2nd round pick for New Orleans 1st rounder, Omar Asik, Jameer Nelson, & Tony Allen. I firmly believe the Jazz could've beat that offer without involving Favors. Mirotic would be the perfect fit on the Jazz right now and would be a key piece when the team has potential to be really good but is missing a piece. It was a missed opportunity due to Lindsey being content to stand pat.

He's averaging 19 & 11 while shooting 35% from the 3 with 7 attempts per game this year. Ouch.
 
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Roy_McAvoy said:
To me, it was not trading a 1st round pick that became Grayson Allen for Nikola Mirotic when he wanted to come to the Jazz and was on a good contract.
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The Jazz were 22-28 on the date this trade happened. We had no idea the Jazz were good at that point. Imagine how pissed people would be if the Jazz traded a lottery pick for Mirotic and we still sucked. I don't think Chicago would have taken a Jazz lotto protected pick, since New Orleans's pick was more likely to convey.
 
id say not trading millsap and not pushing for mirotic. in general, staying pat way too often, especially this last offseason
 
Roy_McAvoy said:
Let me preface with the fact that I think Dennis Lindsey is a good GM and I'm glad to have him. He's still made some mistakes though. Which one was his biggest? Was it,

-Drafting Trey Burke over CJ McCollum?
-Betting that Hayward would resign with the Jazz?
-Drafting Tony Bradley over various other players?
-Letting Millsap walk?
-Drafting Dante Exum
-Drafting Grayson Allen instead of trading down and then taking Allen or someone like Mitchell Robinson early in the 2nd round.
etc..

I argue it wasn't any of those. I think there were stronger arguments for each of those at the time that hindsight made it look worse.

To me, it was not trading a 1st round pick that became Grayson Allen for Nikola Mirotic when he wanted to come to the Jazz and was on a good contract.

The Bulls traded him & a 2nd round pick for New Orleans 1st rounder, Omar Asik, Jameer Nelson, & Tony Allen. I firmly believe the Jazz could've beat that offer without involving Favors. Mirotic would be the perfect fit on the Jazz right now and would be a key piece when the team has potential to be really good but is missing a piece. It was a missed opportunity due to Lindsey being content to stand pat.

He's averaging 19 & 11 while shooting 35% from the 3 with 7 attempts per game this year. Ouch.
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The draft errors can happen to anyone. He's had more big hits than total whiffs.

I even understood the Niko thing. Picks are valuable... there was a chance we could have gotten Niko without the 1st rounder.

The biggest mistakes fit into two buckets for me:

- Not using cap space for anything meaningful over multiple years. This is the one I have had the most trouble with. In years we'v had space we've punted. We haven't made the best of exceptions that are available.
- Hayward related short sighted moves. The Hill trade was fine... I was supportive and he was good but hurt. Letting Hayward have say when he had not committed to the franchise was tough. Ricky is worth the pick in a vacuum... but the fit has always been rough. I understand what he was trying to do... I appreciate he went "all in" he just didn't know Hayward was so wishy-washy. That isn't all on him.


The cap mistakes are much bigger mistakes imo. In a small market using the cap well is huge and it's the biggest part of the equation we have missed on.
 
zyzz said:
The Jazz were 22-28 on the date this trade happened. We had no idea the Jazz were good at that point. Imagine how pissed people would be if the Jazz traded a lottery pick for Mirotic and we still sucked. I don't think Chicago would have taken a Jazz lotto protected pick, since New Orleans's pick was more likely to convey.
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I am pretty sure they would have taken the pick. They dangled him for a while before finding a taker.
 
I think they kicked the tires on Mirotic for a while. I think they concluded that he was a poor defender (i.e., a poor man's Kevin Love) and that he'd hurt the defensive identity that the Jazz had been building. Plus they wanted to keep their first-round pick, given that they were in the lottery at the time.
 
OP gets it.

DL is a top 3 GM.

Niko no-deal will haunt us. I need to dig up some posts I made a year ago about revisionist history would go from “oh he’s not consistent / not worth it” to “oh there’s no way we could have landed him.” That’s beginning to play out.

Unfortunately there’s like 100 pages in that Niko thread.

ETA: here's some stuff from the Niko thread February 4th...

infection said:
People act like someone like Niko grows on trees. But do we know what kinda does grow on trees? Draft picks. You literally get a new one every single year — in perpetuity. DL is going to draft a stud at 15 this year? Great, he can draft a stud in 2019, and 2020, and 2021. I’ve continued to insist we won’t have a top 10 pick and it will be 14 or beyond. Nobody wants to hear it. But whatever, he got moved.

...

We’ll look back in hindsight and rationalize that “well he just wasn’t worth that at the time” and “29 other GMs didn’t value him highly so it’s no biggie we missed” just like people, from any fan base, always rationalize missing on a player by “well 29 other teams passed on him too lololol.” Unfortunately, that’s the only argument we’ll be left with.

And for the record, I’ve stated I think DL is a top three GM and, no, I don’t think it’s a black-and-white, all-or-nothing way to approach whether or not you believe in someone. RG and DM are awesome. Rubio was a bad move. Quin was the right hire. Burke was a bust. DL is an awesome GM. Letting Niko get away will be a huge blunder.
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Regarding Exum, I think DL actually liked Aaron Gordon better. We had him in here for two workouts and all signs on him seemed positive. Then Orlando through us a curveball and drafted Gordon over Exum. Lindsey now had to choose between a big he worked out but didn't love, like Randle or Vonleh, or go for the hail marry with Exum. Needless to say, the hail marry came up about 15' short of the end zone.
 
Catchall said:
I think they kicked the tires on Mirotic for a while. I think they concluded that he was a poor defender (i.e., a poor man's Kevin Love) and that he'd hurt the defensive identity that the Jazz had been building. Plus they wanted to keep their first-round pick, given that they were in the lottery at the time.
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See, and that's what I didn't get. We knew Gobert/Favors didn't work, and we had plenty of good defense to cover him up a bit. It really was a chance worth taking.
 
Jazz4ever said:
Regarding Exum, I think DL actually liked Aaron Gordon better. We had him in here for two workouts and all signs on him seemed positive. Then Orlando through us a curveball and drafted Gordon over Exum. Lindsey now had to choose between a big he worked out but didn't love, like Randle or Vonleh, or go for the hail marry with Exum. Needless to say, the hail marry came up about 15' short of the end zone.
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Right, and I'm confident he would have taken Gordon if he was there. I think not taking Smart was a mistake.
 
infection said:
OP gets it.

DL is a top 3 GM.
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I have full confidence in DL, his track record is stellar. He's gotten the big things 100% right:

Drafting Gobert and Mitchell
Ingles
Hiring Snyder

But. I'd grade him a B/B- as an exec. He's made some small and big mistakes:

Not trading Millsap for something knowing full well he'd walk.
Catering to Haywood with the Hill trade - how much better would we have been if we'd kept Prince?
The Kanter pick
I'd argue the Exum pick
Not maximizing cap space beyond just having it

The Jazz could contend. But, they need a third star and more scoring, especially shot creation.
Mitchell and Ingles can't do everything.
 
I'm going to say his biggest error was not extending Hayward after his rookie contract. The whole "go out and find an offer for us to match" was pretty dumb, especially considering there were reports before that season that he would've resigned for 12-13 million per year. We could've also had him an extra year, which would've been nice.
 
David Stern said:
I'm going to say his biggest error was not extending Hayward after his rookie contract. The whole "go out and find an offer for us to match" was pretty dumb, especially considering there were reports before that season that he would've resigned for 12-13 million per year. We could've also had him an extra year, which would've been nice.
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Excellent selection. That is for sure top 3 at minimum
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Ehh, I think I prefer Exum to Smart.

I wish Exum was more aggressive, but I wouldn't want him to be as aggressive as Smart.

I don't consider Exum a mistake. The Jazz just got ****ed.
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Beyond his speed and length, I really did not see the appeal. He was so raw and inexperienced,
and honestly I think he hasn't gotten much better. If he doesn't make a leap soon he'll be a bench
player.

Smart just seemed like a Jazz guy to me - tough defense, aggressive, scoring potential if not shooting.
I mean the Gordon pick screwed up the whole draft, and a lot of it is hindsight, of course.
 
campaignist said:
Beyond his speed and length, I really did not see the appeal. He was so raw and inexperienced,
and honestly I think he hasn't gotten much better. If he doesn't make a leap soon he'll be a bench
player.

Smart just seemed like a Jazz guy to me - tough defense, aggressive, scoring potential if not shooting.
I mean the Gordon pick screwed up the whole draft, and a lot of it is hindsight, of course.
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I really liked prospect Exum. I though he had great playmaking instincts. Unfortunately, he is still prospect Exum.
 
David Stern said:
I'm going to say his biggest error was not extending Hayward after his rookie contract. The whole "go out and find an offer for us to match" was pretty dumb, especially considering there were reports before that season that he would've resigned for 12-13 million per year. We could've also had him an extra year, which would've been nice.
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Maybe, but no guarantee Hayward stays long-term if he stays another year.
 
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