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College Debt Forgiveness

dalamon said:
I'm Muslim, Mr. "Intelligent". Go look up usury, Islam, and Islamic banking.



Usury is usury-- there is nothing in the bible about 5%. That's a subjective qualification you yourself are making. It's like saying a little adultery is fine. You have posts in this very forum talking about being fundamental with your piety-- you can't pick and choose what you read in the bible, you've said. Well....to me it sounds like you're currently picking and choosing.

Your lack of firepower in this discussion isn't your fault-- it's simply a line of attack that conservatives of Christian faith never receive. For the third and final time-- I encourage my American readers to question themselves as to why.
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Dala...usury is defined as lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest. I'm telling you right now, 5% (standard student loan) is not unreasonably high. And I assumed when you references Jesus that you were talking about the Bible. I'm clearly not a follower of Islam, so I don't see where I would care what the Islamic viewpoint on usury is. It's not a relevant issue. The only reason the Jesus issue would be a relevant point for me is because I'm a Christian, and I rather detailed why I don't think student loans would be considered unreasonably high interest. The Bible does not say lending money with interest is wrong, it says it's wrong for believers to do that with other believers. The context matters there.
 
RandyForRubio said:
Dala...usury is defined as lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest. I'm telling you right now, 5% (standard student loan) is not unreasonably high. And I assumed when you references Jesus that you were talking about the Bible. I'm clearly not a follower of Islam, so I don't see where I would care what the Islamic viewpoint on usury is. It's not a relevant issue. The only reason the Jesus issue would be a relevant point for me is because I'm a Christian, and I rather detailed why I don't think student loans would be considered unreasonably high interest. The Bible does not say lending money with interest is wrong, it says it's wrong for believers to do that with other believers. The context matters there.
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Originally, usury did mean charging any interest at all, but that is no longer the generally accepted definition.
 
NAOS said:
2. Let me turn this question around by asking another question (or three). If the initial lender has sold the debt to a third party for, let’s say, 60 cents on the dollar (note: they’ve done this because they’ve determined that THEY made some bad gambles on a wide set of borrowers + the productivity of economy the borrowers graduated [or not] into, and so they cut bait at that level of repayment + whatever the third party will pay), then why shouldn’t some level of debt forgiveness be bestowed on borrower? Why are borrowers stuck with a dollar-for-dollar match? Why are we allowing companies to see profit in these spaces/terms?
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Debt is bought and sold at market for profit and loss all the time. The value of the debt is inversely correlated to interest rates.

I don't see why an investing entity losing money on a debt means whoever aquires the note should also lose money on the debt. It sounds to me like you are going down some sort of potential for restructuring path for college debt, something I think should become a thing. That whole discussion has to start with what college debt is. It is an unsecured loan that nobody in their right mind would make to somebody with nothing given as collateral in return. Get your four year degree living off Mr. Monopoly then declare bankruptcy. So apparently we solved that problem by instituting this debt bondage situation, which is morally wrong IMO. Now,that we are here, how do we end debt bondage for the many who've slipped through the cracks? I think we can do that without the moral hazards these blanket forgiveness stump speech plans offer.


NAOS said:
On what grounds should I care if they get 100 cents on the dollar if they paid 60 cents? Moral grounds? To people I never struck an agreement with?
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You shouldn't care, whether they paid 60 cents or 100 cents on the dollar. I don't care if the provider of my home loan ever gets paid in full. What I care about is paying off the amount that deed fully into my hands. That's about me, they can lose their entire investment for all I'm concerned. (You can rant to me all you want about misplaced Christian guilt over debts owed)
 
dalamon said:
I'm Muslim, Mr. "Intelligent". Go look up usury, Islam, and Islamic banking.



Usury is usury-- there is nothing in the bible about 5%. That's a subjective qualification you yourself are making. It's like saying a little adultery is fine. You have posts in this very forum talking about being fundamental with your piety-- you can't pick and choose what you read in the bible, you've said. Well....to me it sounds like you're currently picking and choosing.

Your lack of firepower in this discussion isn't your fault-- it's simply a line of attack that conservatives of Christian faith never receive. For the third and final time-- I encourage my American readers to question themselves as to why.
Click to expand...

Can I borrow some money from you interest free Mr nice and moral guy?

You cant say no or ignore the request or else you are a bad person.
 
dalamon said:
It’s in the bible bro
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Again, that was a direction to believers only for use with fellow believers. Also why the Bible says they could charge interest to foreigners, ie, non-believers. Context matters, as you should know Dala.

But I mean, if you would like things to be governed on the basis of the Christian Bible, that would sure be an interesting twist for you.
 
RandyForRubio said:
But I mean, if you would like things to be governed on the basis of the Christian Bible, that would sure be an interesting twist for you.
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Men are superior and the controllers of women, and should beat them for disobedience.

I'm sure @dalamon wants to go down the literal word road. Or is taking 2,000 year old words only prescribed to Christians?
 
RandyForRubio said:
Again, that was a direction to believers only for use with fellow believers. Also why the Bible says they could charge interest to foreigners, ie, non-believers. Context matters, as you should know Dala.

But I mean, if you would like things to be governed on the basis of the Christian Bible, that would sure be an interesting twist for you.
Click to expand...
RandyForRubio said:
Again, that was a direction to believers only for use with fellow believers. Also why the Bible says they could charge interest to foreigners, ie, non-believers. Context matters, as you should know Dala.

But I mean, if you would like things to be governed on the basis of the Christian Bible, that would sure be an interesting twist for you.
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My point remains the same, Hant. Hear me out.

Capitalism has largely modified the sort of Christianity that people practice, entirely straying from its teachings in certain aspects. From the beginning, I’m trying to get you to confront why the Christian Right gets their voters to focus *so much* on other theological issues, while there isn’t a single second of discussion on usury. What’s your answer? I’m targeting you because you have described yourself as a Bible fundamentalist before— I respect that, but I’m asking to see some consistency. Why are you waffling on this issue? The better question is to not personalize this issue— why does *everyone in America* waffle on this issue?

Your sidesteps of “well it’s for believers” and “since when do YOU believe the bible” aren’t really relevant. I’m not saying I vote based on the bible— my point is that millions of Americans say they do, and yet the issue of usury never emerges. It’s because the leaders of this Christian Right are economically corrupt, clinging onto Neo-Calvinist doctrine— ultimately not giving a **** about the poor.
 
idestroyedthetoilet said:
Men are superior and the controllers of women, and should beat them for disobedience.

I'm sure @dalamon wants to go down the literal word road. Or is taking 2,000 year old words only prescribed to Christians?
Click to expand...

Islam is anti-usury too. Mind you, at least Muslims have tried to create “Islamic banking” (to a serious extent) to avoid usurious practices— many Christians have been socially conditioned into worshipping capital by capitalist oligarchs, obscuring the obedience of morals many claim to maintain.

Sadly, capitalism cuts across all cultures, and some of the greatest caricatures of economic oligarchy contemporarily exist in Muslim countries. I’m not trying to slam a religion, im trying to cause some introspection on how political systems impact the faith you have
 
dalamon said:
Islam is anti-usury too. Mind you, at least Muslims have tried to create “Islamic banking” (to a serious extent) to avoid usurious practices— many Christians have been socially conditioned into worshipping capital by capitalist oligarchs, obscuring the obedience of morals many claim to maintain.

Sadly, capitalism cuts across all cultures, and some of the greatest caricatures of economic oligarchy contemporarily exist in Muslim countries. I’m not trying to slam a religion, im trying to cause some introspection on how political systems impact the faith you have
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Fair enough. I didnt care for your literal interpretation pushing (especially across time) on the previous page. I actually meant to bring up the bible and usury in the thread about capping interest rates. There's a quote out their something along the lines of usury laws being the oldest and most consistently enacted commerce laws. I think it's worth pointing out to Christian conservatives that it comes from The Bible.
 
dalamon said:
My point remains the same, Hant. Hear me out.

Capitalism has largely modified the sort of Christianity that people practice, entirely straying from its teachings in certain aspects. From the beginning, I’m trying to get you to confront why the Christian Right gets their voters to focus *so much* on other theological issues, while there isn’t a single second of discussion on usury. What’s your answer? I’m targeting you because you have described yourself as a Bible fundamentalist before— I respect that, but I’m asking to see some consistency. Why are you waffling on this issue? The better question is to not personalize this issue— why does *everyone in America* waffle on this issue?

Your sidesteps of “well it’s for believers” and “since when do YOU believe the bible” aren’t really relevant. I’m not saying I vote based on the bible— my point is that millions of Americans say they do, and yet the issue of usury never emerges. It’s because the leaders of this Christian Right are economically corrupt, clinging onto Neo-Calvinist doctrine— ultimately not giving a **** about the poor.
Click to expand...

That is so much bull. Many Christians work hard for their money and many give lots of money to charities and the poor. I know a Christian that recently loaned over a half a million pesos interest free to a poor man to help him buy a van to get into the tourist business.
 
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