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Very good Nate Silver piece on Debt Ceiling negotiations.

Another thing, you mention your FICA tax break. So, I pay 35% in federal taxes, 5% in state taxes, 7% in sales tax, property taxes, etc AND half of my employees taxes and I'm not paying enough? That there is funny, I don't care who you are.

The budget gets balanced real quick if EVERYBODY pays taxes. And not I paid taxes then received it all back plus some because of Obama's tax break/welfare check. We will see who wants the study on how the mating pattern of Eastern Washington sheep affects the study habits of whites in rural Alabama, when they actuall have to pay for it.
 
Sure, nobody needs more than $2500 a month. Everybody can get by on less than that. BUT, you decided you wanted more. YOU sacrificed YOUR time, while your friends were out living like kings, dropping out of college, building houses. YOU decided that you would do something with a little more merit, and a more stable future. As did I. Why should I/YOU be punished for that. I spent 120 hours a week for years studying and working to get to the position I am now. Why should I be punished for that? Isn't that the whole point of America? That if you work hard, you can be successful?

Ask not what your country can do for you but ask what you can do for your country.

We're fighting two wars, recovering from a recession, and squandered billions (if not trillions) in giving folks like you tax breaks in order to "stimulate" the economy. You folks failed. Obviously you haven't created jobs (here) for almost a decade. Raising of taxes has in the past, actually sparked investment.

If the issue is the well-being of our country and the elimination of debt, then we need to raise taxes. I don't see this as unreasonable. Raise them to Clinton like levels. Show your patriotism.

Good for you and your work ethic. Unfortunately, many "richies" didn't get there by working hard. Nor are those poor people poor because they didn't/don't work hard.
 
Ask not what your country can do for you but ask what you can do for your country.

We're fighting two wars, recovering from a recession, and squandered billions (if not trillions) in giving folks like you tax breaks in order to "stimulate" the economy. You folks failed. Obviously you haven't created jobs (here) for almost a decade. Raising of taxes has in the past, actually sparked investment.

If the issue is the well-being of our country and the elimination of debt, then we need to raise taxes. I don't see this as unreasonable. Raise them to Clinton like levels. Show your patriotism.

Good for you and your work ethic. Unfortunately, many "richies" didn't get there by working hard. Nor are those poor people poor because they didn't/don't work hard.

Be careful with blanket statements. Sure some poor people work hard, others choose to sit on the butts and wait for someone else to provide for them. As for the "richies" it would be interesting to see what percentage of people who make over, let's say $250,000/year got there because mommy and daddy hooked them up and what percentage got there through their own efforts.
 
Looks like the straw men are the hardest workers of all!

;-)


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Be careful with blanket statements. Sure some poor people work hard, others choose to sit on the butts and wait for someone else to provide for them. As for the "richies" it would be interesting to see what percentage of people who make over, let's say $250,000/year got there because mommy and daddy hooked them up and what percentage got there through their own efforts.

I would say more than 50 percent either inherited their wealth or benefited greatly from their parents.

Also, green talked about people graduating from college without any debt. Not only is that impossible for the majority when prices are oftentimes $1000 per credit, but completely irrational when you think about how many people benefit from students who take out thousands upon thousands of dollars of student loans.

The problem right now is that similar to the beginnings of the Great Depression, the middle and lower classes are lacking in wealth. The class warfare has been won, (just as Warren Buffet admitted), by the class that is constantly crying that they're the victims. Facts seem to prove this when you consider the trends of wealth. Is it trickling up or down? Taxes, are they going up and down? Currently, who's benefiting the most? Over the past 30 years, who's been stacking the cards in their favor, in subsidies, tax cuts, and other loopholes (which they're fighting tooth and nail to maintain)?

When they, the middle class lack buying power, the economy stalls. Currently, what little buying power they have, is being skewed by credit card debt. Just this last year credit card debt began to climb again. People have readjusted and are now paying their bills/making purchases, off credit cards once more.

Until those who have "worked harder" than the majority decide to give up some of their wealth and spread it around again and give the other lazy *** classes some purchasing power, this economy is going to struggle.

We've seen 10 years of trickle down economics. This decade has been one of the worst decades in job creation. In fact, for most Americans, this decade has been the worst economically in generations.
 
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QUOTE]This sounds like a way to promise cuts without saying you'll cut anything specific.
[/QUOTE]

Newt's statement attributed this idea to a non-partisan thinktank outfit staffed by consultants who do this sort of analysis for corporations. Corporate managers apparently apply these kinds of views to their own operations while still failing to see merit in government efficiency. Instead,corporates just position themselves to slop up all that government waste.


Similar results came out from Gallup, Quinnipac, and the LA Times. No one is disputing that the majority of Americans believe that spending cuts should be the bulk of the solution. The problem is the GOP converting that support for making it the bulk into a mandate for the solution being entirely financed by spending cuts. There's a scope issue here you don't seem to be wrapping your head around.

We have a spending problem, not a tax problem.


Larouche is a nutcake conspiracy theorist and a felon. Anyone who seriously cites him as an authority for anything can't be taken seriously.

whenever liberals roll out all their epithets, you know it's because someone spoke the truth.

"mainstream" conservatives also roll out all their epithets for him, for the same reason.

LaRouche speaks with the universal "We" so you know he is committed to his "leadership issues" and he will expand government by building infrastructure instead of propping up Goldman-Sachs with a few more Trillion in bailouts.

If the government builds a Hoover Dam or a TVA or an Interstate highway, or promotes railroad construction or dredges commercial waterways, the expense will all be recovered in human productivity and commercial efficiencies, and in years to come will add multiples of excess revenues in tax receipts for a generation.



Half the stimulus was tax cuts. The other half was more than offset by parallel state budget cuts. Keynesian stimulus "failed" because it was never tried.

The pork just oozed out to pay off Obama's support "core". These folks will all line up for more Obama this coming election cycle, too. The people are being squeezed to grease the machine.
 
cut... the..... military....

close half our bases, cut our defense budget in half, cut foreign aid in half, pull out of Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq. Raise taxes to Clinton-era levels.

Problem easily solved.



Of course, many politicians, especially those in southern states who help produce jets that the pentagon doesn't want, engines, bombs, and other crap we don't need would be pissed...

Dwight Eisenhower would have agreed with this. His farewell address contained the original analysis of the military expression of the problem of entrenched interests hijacking democracy and fixing themselves on public teats.

The Keynsian economists have just not cared how government spends money, just so long as the deficits keep a rollin', but do not properly address the issues of misallocation of resources and reducing the production of necessities. Or the injustices of currency inflation. Again, inflation promotes economic decisions that are in fact inefficient. You spend your time and money hedging for inflation instead of doing something with intrinsic merit.

We should expect our government to do things which will make our lives more efficient long-term. Infrastructure projects are the most effective "stimulus".
 
...We should expect our government to do things which will make our lives more efficient long-term. Infrastructure projects are the most effective "stimulus".

this possibly depends on how you define "infrastructure"
is education part of the infrastructure?
is healthcare part of the infrastructure?

Opinions will probably differ wildly on this, but it seems to me that education is the most basic infrastructure there is. I'm not sure where I'd draw the line on some others.
 
Serious question...

Who's going to blink first?

The repubs? who might cave to their outrageous NO TAX INCREASES stance.
Or the Demo winnies who have sucked at this game for years? I remember not too long ago they voted to extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. What wusses for not standing up for what they supposedly believed in and campaigned on.

Or will neither blink and the American people be left shafted?

I agree this is what will happen in the end. Repubs have been on record that they want Obama to fail and they want no Tax increases. I have no doubt the Repubs really only care about getting their way and the Demos usually cave and wonder why people think they are wusses.

When America starts listening to Newt then we are in big trouble. The fact that his opinion has more to do with the Repubs winning and blaming Obama/Demos should only make it easier to understand that Newt and the GOP have only their best interests and not our country. Hopefully, Common Sense will enter the debate and both parties will realize that both parties and the American people have a lot to lose if they don't get a deal done.
 
If you need any suggestions for unloading that extra $700/month in your pocket I can pm you my bank account number.

Truly, do you think it's fair that I suddenly get a big windfall by dint of already making more money?

Sure, nobody needs more than $2500 a month.

Let's not get crazy. In the Bay Area that doesn't pay the rent. :D

BUT, you decided you wanted more. YOU sacrificed YOUR time, while your friends were out living like kings, dropping out of college, building houses. YOU decided that you would do something with a little more merit, and a more stable future. As did I. Why should I/YOU be punished for that. I spent 120 hours a week for years studying and working to get to the position I am now. Why should I be punished for that? Isn't that the whole point of America? That if you work hard, you can be successful?

If taxes were raised I would still have more money than my hypothetical screw-up friends. There's no "punishment" involved. I don't somehow become less wealthy than them or even just as wealthy. It only goes to the margin of difference. The margin is too high for the country to be economically sound. That's just where we are.

I am not the problem.

Everybody is the problem. It's our problem. Embrace it and solve it. You simply have more means to solve the problem than others. That's responsibility, not privilege.


Another thing, you mention your FICA tax break. So, I pay 35% in federal taxes, 5% in state taxes, 7% in sales tax, property taxes, etc AND half of my employees taxes and I'm not paying enough? That there is funny, I don't care who you are.

Quibbles: 35% isn't your federal tax rate, that's your marginal federal tax rate before deductions. I'd be willing to wager money your actual federal income tax rate was somewhere between 17 and 25%. State taxes vary, but you've incurred those by choosing to live in Utah; you could always vote with your feet and go to Texas, Tennessee, or Florida. Property taxes is a cost you chose to incur when you decided not to rent (my property tax in California is 0%). Your employee FICA contributions are a business expense.

So sorry, I'm not buying the woe is me routine. You've gone out of your way to paint this as the highest possible tax burden on you. The reality is that you live in a low tax country during one of the lowest tax periods of the last century. You are uniquely benefitting from tax policy from a historic perspective rather than being uniquely fleeced.


Newt's statement attributed this idea to a non-partisan thinktank outfit staffed by consultants who do this sort of analysis for corporations. Corporate managers apparently apply these kinds of views to their own operations while still failing to see merit in government efficiency. Instead,corporates just position themselves to slop up all that government waste.

I have yet to see any link from you or from any Google source explaining where the $500 billion comes from. As such, I'm treating it as a phantom promise


We have a spending problem, not a tax problem.

The problem is that our expenditures exceed our revenues. That doesn't tell us a) whether this is the most pressing problem (which it isn't, employment is); b) whether the problem is expenditures; c) whether the problem is revenues.

Your framing of the issue moots out a entirely and asserts an answer to b and c without basis.

whenever liberals roll out all their epithets, you know it's because someone spoke the truth.

Actually it's a FACT that he's a conspiracy theorist and a felon. Nutcake was there for flavor.


If the government builds a Hoover Dam or a TVA or an Interstate highway, or promotes railroad construction or dredges commercial waterways, the expense will all be recovered in human productivity and commercial efficiencies, and in years to come will add multiples of excess revenues in tax receipts for a generation.

I agree with these points and campaign-Obama did as well when he talked about infrastructure spending. But we've never had a jobs bill in Congress, largely because of legislative clog.

Larouche's problem is all the crazy stuff that comes along with those ideas: Gold Standard advocation, ties to the Klu Klux Klan, the belief that all criticism of him is conspiracy driven, and his followers who did the infamous Obama as Hitler posters.
 
whenever liberals roll out all their epithets, you know it's because someone spoke the truth.

Sometimes a declared nutcase is a nutcase, not a falsely persecuted martyr. Most people assuming the mantle of Galileo are just wrong.
 
Missed this one.

The Keynsian economists have just not cared how government spends money, just so long as the deficits keep a rollin',

Deficits are not a universal recommendation of Keynesians. The prescription is counter-cyclical. They would (and did) argue for surpluses during good economic times.

Or the injustices of currency inflation. Again, inflation promotes economic decisions that are in fact inefficient.

Predictions of hyperinflation have been coming strong for three years. This inflation has never arrived. There are no signs it's going to come racing around the corner (assuming the US doesn't default of course).

We should expect our government to do things which will make our lives more efficient long-term. Infrastructure projects are the most effective "stimulus".


You're speaking out of both sides here. This is, in fact, what a Keynesian might recommend.
 
On the LarouchePAC (cited by babe several times) website front page right now:

live-now-banner_0.jpg


Also multiple references to QE2 and QE3 as "genocide" and repeated references to Congress as "fascists."

babe said:
whenever liberals roll out all their epithets....


Hmmmmmm.
 
Truly, do you think it's fair that I suddenly get a big windfall by dint of already making more money?

Absolutely not, and that is why I'm asking for it. I lost my job almost 2 years ago. I have been working my butt off at different part time jobs to try to keep things together. An extra $700/month would do wonders for my family budget.
 
Absolutely not, and that is why I'm asking for it. I lost my job almost 2 years ago. I have been working my butt off at different part time jobs to try to keep things together. An extra $700/month would do wonders for my family budget.

Sorry. I'm being told I'm supposed to create a job with that money. I'll get right on that.
 
Sometimes a declared nutcase is a nutcase, not a falsely persecuted martyr. Most people assuming the mantle of Galileo are just wrong.

This is a false dichotomy. Good ideas have merit regardless of the nutcases who sometimes parrot them.

I disagree with any notion of LaRouche being essential to human progress. I disagree with LaRouche on his opinion of Martin Luther and the associated nucleus of feudal princes who help protect him in his anti-Papist theology. A lot of common non-Italian folks were ready to break with the domination of Rome. LaRouche thinks DaVinci, Galileo, and a certain Catholic cardinal who negotiated an end to the hundred years' war are the kinds of advanced humans who can improve things for mankind, using high ideals, education, technology, and science-driver programs like space exploration to elevate our circumstances in ways "essential to the survival of mankind". I sorta have a bias towards a Martin Luther who ostensibly believed ordinary folks were entitled to read the Bible and other things for themselves rather than just believe and obey a priestly class of "experts". But LaRouche is Catholic and so what should I really expect of him.

I agree with LaRouche on some of his major themes: save the humans. improve our technology. consider all the possibilities.
 
Larouche's problem is all the crazy stuff that comes along with those ideas: Gold Standard advocation, ties to the Klu Klux Klan, the belief that all criticism of him is conspiracy driven, and his followers who did the infamous Obama as Hitler posters.

OK, I know you're actually smart, so stop with the stupidity you get from progressive agenda monkies.

LaRouche advocates a new Breton Woods system based on a market basket of goods and commodities to end exploitation of currency manipulations. Breton Woods is what we had from the end of WWII until Nixon in 1970. Under that arrangement, the price of gold did vary so it was not purely a "Gold Standard"... . . In fact a lot of conservatives in the sixties were advocating a return to a true Gold Standard.

LaRouche enjoys the support of many civil rights activists, many blacks, including some famous old associates of Martin Luther King. He is carrying on a major discussion about how some of our current environmental policies are in fact tantamount to genocide against Africans and Asians. You could just as well say that the democratic party has cultivated ties or covered up it's supporters' ties with the Ku Klux Klan.

It is historically and philosophically accurate in linking Brown Brothers Harriman, Prescott Bush, and a lot of ivy league idealists of the thirties with early support for Adolf Hitler, and his point now is that some things Obama has been doing are not entirely in line with American ideals of human liberty. LaRouche and his little band of zealots are hardly a true American political movement from the grass roots, but like Eagle Forum and other organizations are top down leadership cases just as much as any other political outfit on the scene today, so of course there's no room for a professional malcontent like me. But I agree with LaRouche on the observation of disturbing disregard for basic human rights which seem to be getting more and more "the solution" in our politics. Didn't Milsapa recently make that point about how liberal eggheads were taken in with the notion of improving the human race with some kind of policy or another?

I think the comparison is not constructive myself. A lot of high-brow thinkers fall to notions of solving problems at the expense of other people. Our progressives today, in assuming more government power is essential, ultimately intend for that power to be used. . . . and government power, when used, is always used against people who are "in the way of progress". As it may seem to whatever the interested powerful persons may think best.

I've been studying the history of American treaties/dealings with various American Indian tribes recently. . . . it's truly a sad thing to be in the way of "progress". We hardly need to wave the standard epithets at the Nazis when it comes to mass extermination programs.

Grant made the decision to just kill nearly sixty million buffalo so the plains indians would just starve, so we could take their land. He gave away rifles and ammunition, and free train rides to anyone who just wanted to shoot the buffalo, and shoot they did. Hugh piles of buffalo bones lined the railroads for hundreds of miles.
 
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this possibly depends on how you define "infrastructure"
is education part of the infrastructure?
is healthcare part of the infrastructure?

Opinions will probably differ wildly on this, but it seems to me that education is the most basic infrastructure there is. I'm not sure where I'd draw the line on some others.

Let's put it this way. Some things are done better than others by government. I would rather have a dam, a canal, a highway, or even a railroad built by a government than a school or a hospital. There is perhaps arguably equal potential for incompetence, and immunity against tort compensation for various possible catastrophes or mere personal losses when the government does any of these things.

It all has to do with trust. If the people are willing to trust the government but they fail to exercise actual oversight of government, what recourse do they have when the trust is betrayed.

Our trust has been massively betrayed by the legions of government employees at large as well as by our supposedly democratic "representatives", mostly because we do not actively manage our government. In fact, under public educational programs we have largely been misinformed, and conditioned to be compliant. It all began with the advent of John Dewey's British socialist elitist model for "education" reduced from the classical model of developing the individual to his/her capacity for self-directed creative activities to the present "squirrel in the cage" model where we are trained to do what the boss wants and do it faster and faster all the time. Used to be just "train to the task", fitting workers to serve industry or provide superior-compliant management without faltering. . . . but nowadays human beings are mere "resources" to be exploited by the masters.

When we have a government education program passing out citizenship grades and otherwise laying down the law for the masses, along with a whole raft of indoctrination, the proper relation of the people as the source of legitimate government is broken.

Same thing when we have government panels making decisions on the medical care to be allowed to citizens. It's all upside down and in fact the opposite thing from democratic government "of the people, by the people, for the people".

But we are a long way from the central ideas of the American revolution, and as long as people can be drubbed into compliance it's just not going to get any better yet.

At the very least, when the taxpayers pay for a Hoover Dam, they get to go on tours around the structure and can legitimately feel like they have a stake in it.

If education were designed with an intent to support and develop human liberty and human capacity for understanding and competently dealing with national policies, and so well done that a strong majority of us could respectfully discuss the various ideas that might apply to the situation, it would all be different.

If our medical cartel managers were not basically harnessing the government taxation powers to compel citizens to patronize their "services" on their terms, it would be different too.

At least in a free market, consumers can just not buy the product when it isn't what's needed.

On the other hand, if a private or corporate organization wants to use a river, or take private land or resources for a dam, canal, highway or other "public" infrastructure facility, and is going to profit from the operation, the public resource is going out of the public's hands in some extent.

But back to the Nate Silver article. . . . it's what we do with what we have that wins out in the end. . . . I think the loss of credibility that the professional governance crowd both republican and democrat have experienced should result in a massive "change" in government personnel. If we don't fire these incompetents, we have no hope. Even the tea party newbies have largely rolled over into compliance with the failed system which should just be replaced.
 
On the LarouchePAC (cited by babe several times) website front page right now:

live-now-banner_0.jpg


Also multiple references to QE2 and QE3 as "genocide" and repeated references to Congress as "fascists."


Hmmmmmm.

LaRouche has his own special meanings for some terms. the QE programs are mass transfers of wealth from the private citizens into the hands of banker elites, the antecedents of BBH and Prescott Bush of the thirties who today are best associated with GoldmanSachs and other very interconnected and influential interests with much more impact on our governance that we are really aware of. And that, in terms sheered of any invective, relates clearly to the original meaning of "fascist" before Hitler or other dictators made it a slur. In Latin, "fascia" signifies "connections", as in the sinews or fascia that hold various living organs and tissues together. In other words, LaRouche speaks English quite well, and honestly describes reality on this issue.

Here is a fun production on "Quantitative Easing Explained":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k
 
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