Epstein is in Trouble

[The Thriller]

Well, then you would be likely to believe that it was police incompetence that let Ruby get close enough to Oswald to kill him. It was possible but once all the facts about Ruby's connections to the mob were made known it became obvious that something else had happened. So, we shall see if such an important prisoner was allowed to commit suicide because of incompetence. For one, what did he hang himself with? He had been on suicide watch and when that happens they remove anything with which the prisoner might harm himself. So, even if he was taken off it, you think they would've allowed him to have something which he could hang himself with? And just by coincidence the video camera malfunctioned. I can't believe it, especially knowing how corrupt the government is.

Good grief. The warren court investigated this, found no conspiracy. Bugliosi did as well, found no sign of “deep state” conspiracy.

I don’t buy this conspiracy nonsense.

 

[The Thriller]

No, I think Thriller is making a pretty assumption rich argument as well.

I don't just believe things because I want to.

I don't know with any certainty at all what happened in that cell. I have no idea what happened. My imagination is not where I gather information in figuring out what did happen. So I will not be making specific claims about what I "know" happened or didn't happen.

It's called living in reality. A fact based existence where you have to have something tangible before you start making firm assertions about things.

Please tell me what my “assumption rich” argument has been? It’s funny because I’ve claimed that:

A. I want this to be investigated and will let the facts come out first. The timing and position of Epstein this makes for one of the better conspiracies out there.
B. I buy incompetence and mismanagement far more than any “deep state” hit job that the nutjobs are making accusations of.

It’s not a radical position to believe that the chances of someone unintentionally screwing up at the prison are exponentially greater than a paid off hit job to silence him from taking out the rich and powerful in trial.

If that’s “assumption rich” then I got nothing for ya.

 

[gandalfe]

Please tell me what my “assumption rich” argument has been? It’s funny because I’ve claimed that:

A. I want this to be investigated and will let the facts come out first. The timing and position of Epstein this makes for one of the better conspiracies out there.
B. I buy incompetence and mismanagement far more than any “deep state” hit job that the nutjobs are making accusations of.

It’s not a radical position to believe that the chances of someone unintentionally screwing up at the prison are exponentially greater than a paid off hit job to silence him from taking out the rich and powerful in trial.

If that’s “assumption rich” then I got nothing for ya.

So, Hanlon's Razor applies?

 

[The Thriller]

So, Hanlon's Razor applies?

I’ll take the chances of stupidity of prison workers over deep state inspired hits to silence Epstein. So yes.

Having said that, let’s investigate this thoroughly before we point fingers at the Clintons buying off the prison to take out Epstein.

I know this might shock the right wingers on here, but Hillary isn’t omnipotent. She failed to gain the DNC’s nomination in 2008. Then ran a poor campaign which ending up losing to the worst presidential candidate (with help from Russia) in history.

If the Clintons really were gods, Obama would’ve never been in the presidency, Fox News wouldn’t exist anymore, and those who reported on pizzagate would’ve already had their blood sucked out.

 

[JazzGal]

America’s wealthy perverts unsure which of them actually staged Epstein suicide

That was awesome!

Sent from my moto z3 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Getting Traded]

Good grief. The warren court investigated this, found no conspiracy. Bugliosi did as well, found no sign of “deep state” conspiracy.

I don’t buy this conspiracy nonsense.

Having read so many books about the assassination, I can tell you unequivocally that Bugliosi's book was full of errors and disinformation and one of the worst books to rely on for the truth about what happened. And the Warren Commission was run by Allen Dulles who was fired by JFK after the Bay of Pigs debacle. Plus Warren was a close associate of LBJ and it was his job to ensure that it found no conspiracy and that LHO was the lone assassin. That's all I'm going to say on the topic. It's up to you to do your own research. Read instead, JFK and the Unspeakable by James Douglass, and see if you still think it is nonsense.

 

[Getting Traded]

That was awesome!

Sent from my moto z3 using JazzFanz mobile app

Funny, Dershowitz was wiring money.

 

[infection]

I thought you weren't concerned with how the media portrayed it.

Not what I've said. I'm not concerned with anyone's conclusion on it, so long as they have an accurate understanding of what it was. If you believe people are saying that Hillary's running a pedo ring out of the pizza joint, then you don't really know what it was. That was how it's been portrayed. Let me summarize my points because this is getting taken into multiple tangents:

1) Pizzagate was a common label attached to a broader idea of pedo rings. Not just a general idea of them, but specific to people like Epstein. With the release of the Podesta emails, a lot of people focused on Podesta, and other well connected individuals', connection to that, and if that had a connection to a pedo ring in light of Podesta's connection to other pedophiles. The tl;dr on this is that if you understand the smallest part of what Pizzagate was discussing, you knew enough about Epstein.

2) People can take whatever position they'd like on Pizzagate, but if they're going to claim they reject it and know what it is, it's helpful to actually be rejecting the real arguments, and actually know what it was, rather than rejecting the popular ideas of what it was.

3) People can't simultaneously claim to have understood Pizzagate (regardless of one's opinion about it) while being ignorant of Epstein. They are mutually exclusive. If they are ignorant on Epstein, it's because they've isolated themselves into circles where their knowledge about Pizzagate came from someone else summarizing it for them. As the saying goes, "you don't know what it is that you don't know," and as people weren't aware of what was actually being discussed with Pizzagate, they felt they had a good understanding of it (most simplified as "Russian-fueled propaganda targeting the Clintons.")

4) If you want a summary of what those "truthers" believed, go watch the Rogan/Jones video I linked. You won't, but you should. It's from a year ago. It has absolutely nothing to do with Clinton being a mastermind behind a pedo ring at Comet Pizza. With someone like Jones being credited as a large pusher of the story, it's important to know what he actually said (not to believe, but if you want to reject his arguments, you need to reject his actual arguments, and Hillary being a kingpin isn't one of them).

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017...candal-and-how-media-attempted-ignorecover-it

If you are interested in articles now, here's an article from popular alt right zero hedge that alleges that actually it was Hillary's involvement in child abducting in Haiti that started pizza gate.

Right. And we got off on this tangent because you said Epstein had nothing to do with Pizzagate. I countered that Pizzagate was predicated on numerous different connections the Clinton's had to different known pedophiles and how the Podesta emails were read in that light. The article above isn't about the Pizza joint. It's talking about the things that put theories into motion that influenced the way "Pizzagate" came about. It does not say that Hillary was running a child pedo ring out of the pizza parlor (the popular idea I've continually refuted).

And just for the heck of it here's a link to the reddit thread that wikileaks and others picked up on.

https://archive.is/CZP2F

I'm glad you've linked this. First, it's not talking about Hillary running a child pedo ring. Second, it's talking about trying to find a link between her and people involved in child abduction. Third, and most importantly, read the comments. This was from before the election. A few comments down you read this:

This is sickening to even consider if it is a possibly knowing that the Clinton's had a relationship with a billionaire pedophile and Bill rode on his Lolita express more than 20 times.

This circles right back around to my entire point: if anyone even superficially knew what Pizzagate was, they knew about Epstein, as your cursory google search just proved. And no, Epstein (and the things that led people to look at Podesta emails with colored lenses) weren't based on paranoid fantasy. The fact that Bill rode the "Lolita Express" 26 times was documented. Not speculated.

But imagine it, how silly is "Hillary running a prostitution ring out of a pizza parlor? That's tin-foil hat conspiracy garbage!"? Contrast that with "Bill is connected to a pedophile who owns a place called 'Sex Slave Island' and has a plane called 'Lolita Express' that you're alleging Bill rode 26 times? What a bunch of right-wing hogwash!"

And yet, here Red is pontificating on the right's obsession with paranoid pedophile fantasy... in a 17 page thread about a guy with political connections who has been trotting the globe engaging in pedophilia rings. Of all the things that seem to get Red hyperventilating, it's interesting that he's preoccupied with past paranoid fantasy rather than current conspiratorial reality.

 

[Getting Traded]

I’ll take the chances of stupidity of prison workers over deep state inspired hits to silence Epstein. So yes.

Having said that, let’s investigate this thoroughly before we point fingers at the Clintons buying off the prison to take out Epstein.

I know this might shock the right wingers on here, but Hillary isn’t omnipotent. She failed to gain the DNC’s nomination in 2008. Then ran a poor campaign which ending up losing to the worst presidential candidate (with help from Russia) in history.

If the Clintons really were gods, Obama would’ve never been in the presidency, Fox News wouldn’t exist anymore, and those who reported on pizzagate would’ve already had their blood sucked out.

I still think you're discounting the importance of Epstein. You would think they would take extra precautions to keep him alive. But you suggest that they acted with indifference and allowed their incompetence to cause this. I don't buy that, but is it possible? Stranger things certainly have happened.

 

[Zombie]

Not what I've said. I'm not concerned with anyone's conclusion on it, so long as they have an accurate understanding of what it was. If you believe people are saying that Hillary's running a pedo ring out of the pizza joint, then you don't really know what it was. That was how it's been portrayed. Let me summarize my points because this is getting taken into multiple tangents:

1) Pizzagate was a common label attached to a broader idea of pedo rings. Not just a general idea of them, but specific to people like Epstein. With the release of the Podesta emails, a lot of people focused on Podesta, and other well connected individuals', connection to that, and if that had a connection to a pedo ring in light of Podesta's connection to other pedophiles. The tl;dr on this is that if you understand the smallest part of what Pizzagate was discussing, you knew enough about Epstein.

2) People can take whatever position they'd like on Pizzagate, but if they're going to claim they reject it and know what it is, it's helpful to actually be rejecting the real arguments, and actually know what it was, rather than rejecting the popular ideas of what it was.

3) People can't simultaneously claim to have understood Pizzagate (regardless of one's opinion about it) while being ignorant of Epstein. They are mutually exclusive. If they are ignorant on Epstein, it's because they've isolated themselves into circles where their knowledge about Pizzagate came from someone else summarizing it for them. As the saying goes, "you don't know what it is that you don't know," and as people weren't aware of what was actually being discussed with Pizzagate, they felt they had a good understanding of it (most simplified as "Russian-fueled propaganda targeting the Clintons.")

4) If you want a summary of what those "truthers" believed, go watch the Rogan/Jones video I linked. You won't, but you should. It's from a year ago. It has absolutely nothing to do with Clinton being a mastermind behind a pedo ring at Comet Pizza. With someone like Jones being credited as a large pusher of the story, it's important to know what he actually said (not to believe, but if you want to reject his arguments, you need to reject his actual arguments, and Hillary being a kingpin isn't one of them).



Right. And we got off on this tangent because you said Epstein had nothing to do with Pizzagate. I countered that Pizzagate was predicated on numerous different connections the Clinton's had to different known pedophiles and how the Podesta emails were read in that light. The article above isn't about the Pizza joint. It's talking about the things that put theories into motion that influenced the way "Pizzagate" came about. It does not say that Hillary was running a child pedo ring out of the pizza parlor (the popular idea I've continually refuted).



I'm glad you've linked this. First, it's not talking about Hillary running a child pedo ring. Second, it's talking about trying to find a link between her and people involved in child abduction. Third, and most importantly, read the comments. This was from before the election. A few comments down you read this:



This circles right back around to my entire point: if anyone even superficially knew what Pizzagate was, they knew about Epstein, as your cursory google search just proved. And no, Epstein (and the things that led people to look at Podesta emails with colored lenses) weren't based on paranoid fantasy. The fact that Bill rode the "Lolita Express" 26 times was documented. Not speculated.

But imagine it, how silly is "Hillary running a prostitution ring out of a pizza parlor? That's tin-foil hat conspiracy garbage!"? Contrast that with "Bill is connected to a pedophile who owns a place called 'Sex Slave Island' and has a plane called 'Lolita Express' that you're alleging Bill rode 26 times? What a bunch of right-wing hogwash!"

And yet, here Red is pontificating on the right's obsession with paranoid pedophile fantasy... in a 17 page thread about a guy with political connections who has been trotting the globe engaging in pedophilia rings. Of all the things that seem to get Red hyperventilating, it's interesting that he's preoccupied with past paranoid fantasy rather than current conspiratorial reality.

OK, I think we were just talking past one another. I agree that anyone well versed in the pizzagate theory would have known who Epstein was.

My point was only that Bill Clinton's ties with Epstein (and Trump's mind you, that bit always seems to be left out of the pizzagate pushers story) were known about and reported by other people than pizzagate pushers.

As is often the case with conspiracy theories there are nuggets of truth in pizzagate, but there is also a mountain of ********. It's no coincidence that the pizzagate theory ended up morphing into QAnon once Trump was elected and they needed an explanation why he wasn't throwing Hillary and Podesta in prison.

I don't need to spend an hour listening to Alex Jones to know that he's full of it, nor was he the sole source of the conspiracy theory, so I'll pass on the video, thanks.

If your point is that the media mischaracterized what pizzagate was about, then I'd submit that's the fault of the people building the conspiracy theory and pushing it into nonsense territory. The truth is bad enough without concocting wild theories about deep state conspiracies and pedo rings run out of pizza parlors. The point of those links I provided was to show that many of the people spreading pizzagate were absolutely convinced of Hillary's role in all of this, that was the entire point of it. And it wasn't simply about her connection to Podesta. It's not a coincidence the whole thing took off during the late stages of the 2016 election.

I think Red would agree that the world is a bad enough place that we don't need to construct conspiracy theories or take seriously those who push them.

 

[Getting Traded]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/11/nyregion/epstein-death-manhattan-correctional-center.html

But six days later, prison officials determined he was no longer a threat to his own life and put him in a cell in the protective housing unit with another inmate, a prison official familiar with the incident said.

It is standard practice at the Metropolitan Correctional Center to place people who have been on suicide watch with a cellmate, two people with knowledge of Mr. Epstein’s case said. The theory is a cellmate can provide company to someone who may be suicidal, helping them stave off depression, and can also alert guards in an emergency.

But Mr. Epstein’s cellmate was moved out of the protective housing unit, leaving him alone, the prison official said.

Bureau of Prison officials said it is standard procedure for guards in protective housing units to check on inmates every half-hour.

It remained unclear why that procedure was not followed in Mr. Epstein’s case. Like many federal prisons and detention centers, the jail has been short staffed for some time, union leaders have said.

The two guards on duty in the special housing unit where Mr. Epstein was housed were both working overtime, the prison official with knowledge of the incident said.

One of the corrections officers was working his fifth straight day of overtime, while the other officer had been forced to work overtime, the official said.

Built in 1975, the Metropolitan Correctional Center is an imposing 12-story brick building at 150 Park Row, a stone’s throw from the two federal courthouses in Lower Manhattan. It holds about 800 people in 10 housing units, most of them awaiting trial or sentencing.

Some of its wings — notably the 10 South special housing unit — have severe security measures, and have housed high-profile defendants over the years, among them the Gambino boss John Gotti, the terrorist Ramzi Yousef and the Mexican drug kingpin Joaquín Guzmán Loera, known as El Chapo.

An investigation by The New York Times that published last year revealed that federal prisons across the country, including the Metropolitan Correctional Center, have been dealing with rising violence as staffing at the facilities has dwindled.

Questions about the safety of such prisons arose late last year when James (Whitey) Bulger, the notorious Boston gangster, was brutally murdered in a West Virginia prison shortly after being moved there.

Cameron Lindsay, a former warden at the federal jail in Brooklyn and four other facilities, said senior officials at the M.C.C. made a series of mistakes in handling Mr. Epstein.

For starters, Mr. Lindsay said Mr. Epstein should not have been taken off suicide watch, even if the prison’s chief psychologist had determined it was safe to do so. With a high-profile inmate, the warden should have erred on the side of caution and kept him under close surveillance, separate from other inmates, Mr. Lindsay said.

“A psychologist is going to think one way, but a warden needs to think a different way,” he said. “You have to take the conservative, safe route and keep an individual like this on suicide watch.”

Mr. Lindsay pointed out that Mr. Epstein was also at risk to be attacked by other inmates because of the nature of the allegations against him. “In the subculture of prisons, it’s a badge of honor to take someone out like that,” he said.

Other former prison officials also questioned the prison’s decision to put Mr. Epstein on suicide watch for such a short period of time.

Though it is not uncommon for an inmate to be on suicide watch for less than a week, that is typically done in cases when an inmate receives bad news in court or from family — not soon after a suicide attempt, said Bob Hood, a former chief of internal affairs for the Bureau of Prisons.

In Mr. Epstein’s case, not only did he apparently attempt suicide on July 23, but humiliating information continued to be released to the public through news outlets, Mr. Hood said. That would normally have prompted prison officials to keep him under closer surveillance, not remove him from the 24-hour-a-day suicide watch, he said.

“Why he was taken off suicide watch is beyond me,” said Mr. Hood. He added, “A man is dead. The Bureau of Prisons dropped the ball. Period.”

 

[Red]

And yet, here Red is pontificating on the right's obsession with paranoid pedophile fantasy... in a 17 page thread about a guy with political connections who has been trotting the globe engaging in pedophilia rings. Of all the things that seem to get Red hyperventilating, it's interesting that he's preoccupied with past paranoid fantasy rather than current conspiratorial reality.

Naw, you're reading way too much into my motivation here. First of all, "here's an interesting essay" is hardly pontificating. Secondly, I just stumbled across that article a couple of days ago, and just thought it pertained to the overall subject, and posted it. I had no real idea how it pertained to what you were saying In particular at all. As far as what I myself know of Pizzagate, beyond the shooting incident, I really know nothing about it; I never had any reason to be interested in it. I've read your postings here, I can see you've invested a great deal into what you're saying, but I've no intention of judging it. Or probably dealving into it that much at all, which is the only way I could judge it. I do think Epstein's death is the birth of an all time conspiracy nexus. It's only the beginning that I can see.

 

[Red]

Having read so many books about the assassination, I can tell you unequivocally that Bugliosi's book was full of errors and disinformation and one of the worst books to rely on for the truth about what happened. And the Warren Commission was run by Allen Dulles who was fired by JFK after the Bay of Pigs debacle. Plus Warren was a close associate of LBJ and it was his job to ensure that it found no conspiracy and that LHO was the lone assassin. That's all I'm going to say on the topic. It's up to you to do your own research. Read instead, JFK and the Unspeakable by James Douglass, and see if you still think it is nonsense.

Well, the House Select Committee on Asssinations, when it published its findings, in 1979, did conclude Kennedy "probably" was the victim of a conspiracy. So that Committee did contradict the Warren Commission. That Committee did conclude there was a second gunmen, based on acoustic evidence, but maybe that conclusion has been overturned since. But not officially, I believe. Certainly, the majority of Americans came to believe there was a conspiracy, even if no grassy knoll gunman.

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1c.html

C. The Committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The Committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.

I don't believe the Warren Commission. The JFK murder is one conspiracy theory that hooked me. Can never be certain, it could have been 100% Oswald, but that's a tough one for me to buy. But I'm always ready to see more evidence.

 

[Getting Traded]

Well, the House Select Committee on Asssinations, when it published its findings, in 1979, did conclude Kennedy "probably" was the victim of a conspiracy. So that Committee did contradict the Warren Commission. That Committee did conclude there was a second gunmen, based on acoustic evidence, but maybe that conclusion has been overturned since. But not officially, I believe. Certainly, the majority of Americans came to believe there was a conspiracy, even if no grassy knoll gunman.

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1c.html

C. The Committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The Committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.

I don't believe the Warren Commission. The JFK murder is one conspiracy theory that hooked me. Can never be certain, it could have been 100% Oswald, but that's a tough one for me to buy. But I'm always ready to see more evidence.

That's basically old news and research has gone far beyond these committees.

 

[The Thriller]

I’m thinking this is far more likely than any conspiracy:

 

[Getting Traded]

I’m thinking this is far more likely than any conspiracy:

That's what they want you to believe. Just like WMDs and 9-11 -- LOL. As you probably read in the NYT article, the experts in the prison industry who were contacted said there were no excuses for what happened.

 

[The Thriller]

That's what they want you to believe. Just like WMDs and 9-11 -- LOL. As you probably read in the NYT article, the experts in the prison industry who were contacted said there were no excuses for what happened.

I don’t believe there was a deep state conspiracy to assassinate JFK. And I’m not willing to argue about that.

But What about wmd and 9/11?

Just curious, what’s your opinion of government run health care?

 

[JazzGal]

It is true here that the prison is always understaffed and they are always begging other DOC officers to cover shifts for overtime pay. My department has not been fully staffed for over 6 years, and it just keeps getting worse. When you have hundreds of other prisoners to control, it seems possible to let one guy slide, no matter how high profile he is.

Sent from my moto z3 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Getting Traded]

I don’t believe there was a deep state conspiracy to assassinate JFK. And I’m not willing to argue about that.

But What about wmd and 9/11?

Just curious, what’s your opinion of government run health care?

If you read Bugliosi, then you won't believe it because he was an apologist for the government position. I did give a brief explanation of 9-11 and WMD, but I am far more knowledgeable about JFK.

9-11: Twin towers would've toppled not imploded if it was only the planes causing them to fall -- go to Architect & Engineers for 9-11 Truth: https://www.ae911truth.org/

WMDs: No WMDs were ever found, and it is my belief that Colin Powell resigned because he was unhappy that he was forced to give a false narrative to the UN to justify a war in Iraq. Doing the deed of the good soldier. There are some other explanations like erroneous intelligence received by the CIA, but I also have read that there were some in the CIA who complained that there was no evidence of WMDs. They simply suspected there were but had no proof. There was a lot of pressure to push for the war because of Cheney and Rumsfeld, who had huge investments in the military-industrial complex -- Cheney was the former CEO of Halliburton, for example.

 

[Getting Traded]

Government-run healthcare. I'm not an expert, but the way things are, even in current Medicare, the insurance and drug companies are making huge profits and our healthcare is not cheaper but more expensive than any country in the world, by far. The Medicare for All proposed by Sanders will take away a lot of the control of the system currently exercised by the drug and insurance companies. For instance, you can't get coverage for acupuncture or other alternative treatments for most policies; you have to pay up the wazoo for a lot of the tests recommended by the IFM, Institute of Functional Medicine, which cutting-edge healthcare specialists recommend but they're not approved by the FDA which is controlled by Big Pharma.