Trump abandons Kurdish allies to Turkish invasion

[Zombie]

As a leftist on Jazzfanz (one of few, this place is largely filled with moderates/liberals/conservatives) I've actually always quite liked the Kurds, but ahh well, I've seen this one coming from a long ways off.

Yeah that criticism is ridiculous. Support of the Kurds has long been a pretty bipartisan affair.

 

[Zombie]

You completely ignored American military capability V the other countries you listed. As well as the simple fact that this annihilates any credibility we had. How will NATO, Japan and South Korea view this?

I dont want to be the world police. But the answer is absolutely not just abandoning our allies. Short of attacking them in some form ourselves this is possibly the worst possible outcome.

Right. I mean, look if I had my druthers we wouldn't have invaded Iraq in the first place and this entire situation would be completely different, but we did and this is part of the fallout. It's a bitch move to cut bait and run now after all the Kurds have sacrificed in this fight.

To use this as some sort of gotcha against those on the left who are anti-imperialist is such a context free simpleton look at the issue.

 

[Zombie]

We didn't break Syria.

We invaded Iraq, which destabilized the region and eventually got us ISIS. So yeah, we kind of did.

 

[framer]

Laughing at all of the leftists pretending to care about the Kurds for the first time in their lives.

Someone needs to explain to me why, if Turkey invades Syria, this is the fault or sole responsibility of the United States. This would obviously be a move to war and would be something that concerns the United Nations crowd, no? How many German, French, Japanese, and South American troops are protecting Syria from Turkey? Any Canadians? Isn't this type of American unilateralism the stuff that the Jazzfanz prog crowd has decried for a couple decades?

Obviously, I don't want Turkey to invade Syria or mess with the Kurds. Which of you on jazzfanz are ready to send their kid over to fight this battle? Thriller? You ready to sign up?

If it is important, there ought to be an international consensus on this. That will never happen if the US is carrying ALL of the water here. Is the United States the ONLY interested party? If yes, THAT is the part that is broken, not what Trump decides.

We didn't break Syria. There really isn't anything there that amounts to a hard national interest. I'm sure Israel and Saudi Arabia have interests there, is the Anti- Israel jazzfanz brigade willing to jump in there and protect THEIR interests?

Seems like a simple thing to tell Turkey that invading Syria would be considered an unprovoked act of war by the world community and there would be consequences., unless there would actually be no consequences from the world community. If that is the case, then any blood would be on their hands, not ours.

BTW, the correct answer is Denmark. Denmark has offered a limited amount of troops.

 

[Stoked]

Right. I mean, look if I had my druthers we wouldn't have invaded Iraq in the first place and this entire situation would be completely different, but we did and this is part of the fallout. It's a bitch move to cut bait and run now after all the Kurds have sacrificed in this fight.

To use this as some sort of gotcha against those on the left who are anti-imperialist is such a context free simpleton look at the issue.

If I was another country tied to American might for protection I’d be looking at all other options fast. Places like the Baltics, Middle East and Southeast Asia could become quite volatile from this. And this after all Trump has said about ditching NATO. Then he actually does it to someone?

interesting side take. Could this be what pushes Republicans, specifically senators, against him if an impeachment vote reaches the floor? We’ve already seen a couple Senate
Rs start pushing back.
I’m also wondering if Trump is trying to get impeached and thrown out.

 

[framer]

We invaded Iraq, which destabilized the region and eventually got us ISIS. So yeah, we kind of did.

Your unspoken ellipses doing a lot of work there.

 

[Stoked]

We invaded Iraq, which destabilized the region and eventually got us ISIS. So yeah, we kind of did.

we were major contributors but that was far from a solo effort.

 

[framer]

Right. I mean, look if I had my druthers we wouldn't have invaded Iraq in the first place and this entire situation would be completely different, but we did and this is part of the fallout. It's a bitch move to cut bait and run now after all the Kurds have sacrificed in this fight.

To use this as some sort of gotcha against those on the left who are anti-imperialist is such a context free simpleton look at the issue.

Are you saying that the Kurds would have just joined with ISIS had the United States not become involved? You make the assumption that the Iraq Bathists would always have been able to hold back the forces that became ISIS. Assad certainly couldn't.

It's not a "GOTCHA" so much as a reflection on how this suddenly became important when it could be used to bash Trump. You said nothing when Obama "abandoned our allies" and led to the destabilization that created ISIS. You just didn't care then. Why should anyone care for your opinion now?

 

[Zombie]

we were major contributors but that was far from a solo effort.

Oh absolutely, I mean there were obviously a lot of factors at play. I wouldn't even say we're primarily responsible for the situation in Syria.

It all stemmed from the Arab spring, Assad and other authoritarian regimes are ultimately responsible for their people rising against them.

But it's ludicrous to say that we aren't in some part responsible for the **** show in the Middle East given our long history of ****ing **** up over there.

 

[Zombie]

Are you saying that the Kurds would have just joined with ISIS had the United States not become involved? You make the assumption that the Iraq Bathists would always have been able to hold back the forces that became ISIS. Assad certainly couldn't.

I didn't suggest anything of the sort, and I recognize that Obama should not have withdrawn from Iraq when he did. Speaking of assumptions, I don't know why you think you know what my thoughts were back then.

As for Iraq, it seems fairly likely to me that ISIS as we know it wouldn't have even existed were it not for our invasion of Iraq. After all they were borne out of the power vacuum we created.

The Baathists had a better track record than the US in keeping that country from fracturing into tribal warfare, for better or worse.

 

[Zombie]

If I was another country tied to American might for protection I’d be looking at all other options fast. Places like the Baltics, Middle East and Southeast Asia could become quite volatile from this.

Not to mention Russia.

 

[NAOS]

Laughing at all of the leftists pretending to care about the Kurds for the first time in their lives.

Someone needs to explain to me why, if Turkey invades Syria, this is the fault or sole responsibility of the United States. This would obviously be a move to war and would be something that concerns the United Nations crowd, no? How many German, French, Japanese, and South American troops are protecting Syria from Turkey? Any Canadians? Isn't this type of American unilateralism the stuff that the Jazzfanz prog crowd has decried for a couple decades?

Obviously, I don't want Turkey to invade Syria or mess with the Kurds. Which of you on jazzfanz are ready to send their kid over to fight this battle? Thriller? You ready to sign up?

If it is important, there ought to be an international consensus on this. That will never happen if the US is carrying ALL of the water here. Is the United States the ONLY interested party? If yes, THAT is the part that is broken, not what Trump decides.

We didn't break Syria. There really isn't anything there that amounts to a hard national interest. I'm sure Israel and Saudi Arabia have interests there, is the Anti- Israel jazzfanz brigade willing to jump in there and protect THEIR interests?

Seems like a simple thing to tell Turkey that invading Syria would be considered an unprovoked act of war by the world community and there would be consequences., unless there would actually be no consequences from the world community. If that is the case, then any blood would be on their hands, not ours.

It wouldn’t be a bad idea for you to review the specifics of unilateral actions by the US in Iraq, and how the Kurds stepped up for them. There are important details—and, dare I say honor-bound issues—in this relationship that are lost when someone like yourself throws up their hands and appeals to some global context. I feel confident wagering that the US made promises it is now walking away from even as it declares victory.

Given where things have been headed for a long time, the best thing for anyone around here to do is to get comfortable with the fact that the Kurds picked the wrong alley.