Hotdog
Well-Known Member
I gotta admit. That was pretty stupid. Dude is crazy.
Trump abandons Kurdish allies to Turkish invasion
- Thread starter Zombie
- Start date
I gotta admit. That was pretty stupid. Dude is crazy.
Hotdog
Well-Known Member
It was cringey for sure.
Ellipse
Well-Known Member
The point I was trying to make, which went over your head (my fault, not yours because it is my responsibility to communicate clearly) is that there is a long history of our failed involvement in the Middle East.
Now I was actually in favor of the first Iraqi war. And I reluctantly supported Bush II in the second. I said "reluctantly" because, after Bosnia and Mogadishu, I was beginning to have doubts about our intervention policy and I didn't like the way the Afghan war was progressing with no apparent end in sight. But Bush II said Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and I believed that the president had information sources that he couldn't share with us.
Then we found out that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but was hoodwinked into war by an Iraqi dissident who wanted us to kick Saddam out and put him in power. (And thank you, CIA, for doing a such a wonderful job of giving us this intelligence before we went to war.)
So I learned to be very skeptical when our leaders involve us in new wars. What happened in Libya and Egypt showed I was right to be skeptical. Then we got involved in Syria.
You wonder what will happen to the (Syrian) Kurds if we pull out? The same thing that will happen if we pull out next year, or in two years, or in twenty years: they will be left surrounded by hostile regimes. The same regimes that surrounded them before we intervened.
There are no good options, but, perhaps, we should have had the foresight to recognize a fools errand before we invaded a sovereign nation that was never a threat to our national interest.
And, yeah, that's what Nationalist means for those of us who voted for Trump.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
So much winning
Disgusting.
Disgusting.
Ellipse
Well-Known Member
You're right. We should bomb the hell out of Turkey, what's another war between NATO allies? Or does it matter that Turkey is a part of NATO?
If we attack a member of NATO, i.e. Turkey, does that put us at war with the other NATO nations? (Although I must admit, bombing the French has a certain appeal.) Or how does war with Russia sound if they attack the Kurds?
Oh, the conundrum we find ourselves in: Break our faith with Kurds or attack a NATO ally and possibly go to war with Russia?
Sure looks like we were pretty damn stupid to put ourselves in this fix by invading Syria.
Zombie
Well-Known Member
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The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Yeah. It’s a weird post. No one but trump and is unmatched wisdom has advocated for military action against Turkey. Plenty of people have advocated for maintaining the protection of our Kurdish allies.
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/08/as...tl-hnk/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/world
To the shame of the American sprit and the shame of American idealism we have not thrown open the road for these people. I know plenty of places for them to go. Southern Utah, Detroit...so many places that could use their passion and desire for a better life.
To the shame of the American sprit and the shame of American idealism we have not thrown open the road for these people. I know plenty of places for them to go. Southern Utah, Detroit...so many places that could use their passion and desire for a better life.
it also raises interesting, to me at least, questions.
How does a war between NATO allies work?
is desire to keep Turkey in NATO places above allegiance to allies like the Kurds?
Ellipse
Well-Known Member
Strawman? Are the (Syrian) Kurds not being threatened by the Turks and Russia? Isn't that what is being reported by David Ignatius? What everyone is implying is that the only way we can protect the (Syrian) Kurds is if we continue our illegal occupation of a sovereign nation in perpetuity.
Zombie
Well-Known Member
I mean, Turkey would want a war with the US about as much as we would. Which of course is why US presence and support of the Kurds acted as a deterrent to an invasion.
I think there would be a diplomatic breakdown and a disintegration of NATO before its members would engage in warfare with one another.
Zombie
Well-Known Member
If you believe we live in a binary world, where only the events you've imagined are possible, then sure.
I don’t mean us and Turkey specifically and it SL all hypothetical and back room whiskey talk.
But watching it play out as national policy is horrendous.
rise up Rs. RISE UP AND THROW HIM DOWN IN RIGHTEOUS FURY
Zombie
Well-Known Member
Yeah I gotcha, I guess my point is that organizations like NATO exist in part because it creates a mutually beneficial arrangement where the need to stay in overrides whatever kind of objective might be met by an action that would lead to getting kicked out.
but does it? At what point does something else some other goal rose above that
what would it take for a rational US president to abandon NATO. Poland, UK, Germany, Hungary...Turkey?
does NATO see such an event coming and pre-emptively kick a nation out? Is that even a thing?
Zombie
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm sure there is a theoretical limit that may be reached someday. But it's worked for seventy years now.
A rational president would probably find a way to pin the other party as the "aggressor" and get them kicked out first lol.
true. But we suddenly have Erdogan and Trump. Are either rational? Abandoning the Kurds over night doesn’t seem rational to me. Nor does the severe crack down and roll back of freedoms in Turkey. According to American journalism at least.
Ellipse
Well-Known Member
Oh lordy, so now I'm living in a binary world. Please tell me what can be more binary than:
'There ISIS! Kurds, attack!'
Zombie
Well-Known Member
Well, Kurds have been fighting for autonomy and their own state with Turkey for a good forty years now. From that perspective Erdogan is acting rationally.
Trump on the other hand, yeah, it just doesn't make sense. The decision to bail was clearly not well thought out, or consulted on with basically anyone aside from Erdogan as far as I can tell. I guess there could be some heretofore unknown motive for this move by Trump, but I'd hate to speculate.