Can We Please Just Waive NWG?

[infection]

I guess we have very different definitions of what conservative is. If you make several moves that fail miserably, that is not conservative to me. That's just making poor moves. I completely agree, viewing it as conservative/aggressive does miss the mark. Roping anything and everything into being conservative is the most basic, common thing from generic disgruntled fans. Seen it a million times from fans of all teams. Same type of people who are still happy when their team fails, because it at least means that they were right.

I'll believe you if you say you're an objective person, but I don't see objectivity I am going to try to understand what's getting you there. I just can't see how the failure to sign someone no one else has signed exhibits a crippling lack of aggression. I also don't think it's crazy to acknowledge that there's probably something with Shaq's situation that we don't know. Unless his agent posts on JazzFanz...that's undeniably true.

Lack of aggression isn’t a complaint I’ve lodged. Not signing someone like Shaq is a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself. The problem is a lack of recognition of a problem (and also tunnel vision which is a secondary part of the problem). That problem is perimeter defense. Yes, this has limited possibility for upgrade because Clarkson, Bojan, Mitchell, and Conley are all four guys who will command a lot of minutes. The obvious and largest solution revolves around Conley, and we’ve already covered that we’re not going to change that. So the idea is that we’re content with what we’ve got. The complaint is really that we’ve locked in to one narrow idea. That idea is believing that all our defensive woes lie with the backup 5 spot (we were the guys complaining about this issue and told to trust the process). It seems as if we feel we’ve addressed that and that’s it. We’ve done our work. The fact that we’re pimping up the answer to be a guy who hasn’t played any impactful NBA minutes tells us all we need to know about how little of a problem they view this as. This has nearly nothing to do with Shaq.

 

[KqWIN]

Lack of aggression isn’t a complaint I’ve lodged. Not signing someone like Shaq is a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself. The problem is a lack of recognition of a problem. That problem is perimeter defense. Yes, this has limited possibility for upgrade because Clarkson, Bojan, Mitchell, and Conley are all four guys who will command a lot of minutes. The obvious and largest solution revolves around Conley, and we’ve already covered that we’re not going to change that. So the idea is that we’re content with what we’ve got. The complaint is really that we’ve locked in to one narrow idea. That idea is believing that all our defensive woes lie with the backup 5 spot (we were the guys complaining about this issue and told to trust the process). It seems as if we feel we’ve addressed that and that’s it. We’ve done our work. The fact that we’re pimping up the answer to be a guy who hasn’t played any impactful NBA minutes tells us all we need to know about how little of a problem they view this as. This has nearly nothing to do with Shaq.

Fair enough. I do agree that the team has more or less neglected and obvious need for this team. Counterpoint to that would be that Oni is that dude, but that's not enough for me either. But for Shaq specially, I did make a specific point that with his situation there's probably something we don't know. And that was contested, so I felt the need to explain my reasoning. I am talking to two different people here, and HH specifically mentioned lack of aggression ect multiple times.

But the point stands for Shaq and every other signed player. No player remains unsigned because of something specific to the Jazz FO.

 

[Hekate]

I think both guys are elite perimeter defenders and its tough to say matisse has a bigger range of impact when their "do ****" numbers are either the same or favor Shaq (sample size I know).

The on/off numbers heavily favor Shaq in the argument... so the impact you are giving him credit for is strictly based on the eye test. I'm fine with that. Shaq's team was 8 pts better per 100 possessions with him on the floor and had a defensive rating of 103... Matisse was only 1.2 pts better and they were a 109 with him on the floor and he obviously plays with much better defensive talent.

Defensive impact goes beyond stats, though. Deflections aren't much better than steals and blocks when evaluating defense, not that it means it isn't good but you have to watch. When I watch Matisse I see him cover more ground, help better so yes, it's eye test. I can't seem to trust defensive stats much when there is so much they don't input. Not that I don't include them in my evaluation, though.

I agree Matisse plays with better defenders and Shaq's on/off numbers indicate he is a good defender.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Royce played at Baylor... Joe was a great find. He locks in on guys a lot in the draft. Its almost comical. He targets guys like Mike and won't deviate if the price is too high. This offseason a couple teams got the drop on us by flipping stuff we sent for something more than we got. There were circumstances but he either can't think on the fly or just didn't poke around enough. He was locked into his guys that he knew would be there so it likely doesn't matter. He drafts guys from Duke, Kansas, UNC... ain't like he's finding guys every year and developing them like Miami. I don't know that we've had one second round pick that has panned out since he took over... In the Jokic draft we had a second we sold because there weren't other guys that DL liked... that doesn't strike me as a wide net. DL is slowly reactive rather than actively looking to improve the team. He's a C+ GM that gets the credit of a 4.0 student.

As it relates to shaq he's gettable but that doesn't mean he can be had for a minimum deal. He might have minimum deals on the table in various locations that aren't ideal and eventually settles... but if some team came in with a 3 year 9M offer (we can do it through a sign and trade its quite easy). It might be the winning offer... that's what I mean by super gettable. Its fine though we can just let a glamour market scoop him up for a minimum deal.

The league as a whole misses on guys a lot for various reasons... and it isn't just Shaq. There are 10-15 guys much more deserving of a roster spot than NWG and its getting late... so hopefully DL hasn't closed up shop... but we know he likes to do his business early.

Holy **** this board is getting dumb

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

We still got people crying about Shaq Harrison when we signed his younger more talented clone.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Defensive impact goes beyond stats, though. Deflections aren't much better than steals and blocks when evaluating defense, not that it means it isn't good but you have to watch. When I watch Matisse I see him cover more ground, help better so yes, it's eye test. I can't seem to trust defensive stats much when there is so much they don't input. Not that I don't include them in my evaluation, though.

I agree Matisse plays with better defenders and Shaq's on/off numbers indicate he is a good defender.

Thybulle is leagues better and it's not close

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

HH: "Omg DL just laser focuses on a prospect and won't give up"

Also HH: *writes 1000th post crying about not signing Shaq Harrison*

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Shaq's in that weird grey area where he probably feels he deserves minutes but teams dont have the minutes for him, so he held out hoping something better would open up and it never did.

How may teams even have open roster spots now? The top European leagues are already in full-swing. The G-League might not even play this year. There are going to be a lot of solid players just sitting at home training during the NBA season.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

HH: "Omg DL just laser focuses on a prospect and won't give up"

Also HH: *writes 1000th post crying about not signing Shaq Harrison*

I mean the thread wasn’t supposed to be about Shaq but people brought him up so I went with it.

my apologies for suggesting that maybe DL is not doing anything other than an A+ job... now please go on telling us about our current players who are all world beaters...

TB =Poor mans Aldridge
NWG =Monte Morris
Forrest = better version of Shaq

Have any others to share?

 

[NAOS]

You guys have some awful analogies lol.

I get it, the FO sucks and made some terrible decisions. But if we can't talk objectively about their moves or process, it's not much different than blindly following and supporting everything they do. I can't follow this logic of the Jazz suffering because their conservative, reactive, not aggressive ect. when they just made one of the worst moves of the past decade and possibly squandered the careers of Gobert + Mitchell. We're in a bad spot because of aggressive, yet awful moves.

I suppose that it is a more pleasant existence to look at everything negative, because you're either pleasantly surprised or you were right and you can try to brag about it online. But this is how you can turn into a maniac going over NWG vs some other player that no team wants

It doesn’t sound like you’re struggling to step back and take a look at how the org has botched the last 2 offseasons. Or how it could all get much worse than it stands right now depending on what happens with Gobert. And maybe we play it out this season with Rudy and lose him next offseason for nothing, completing a hat trick of ******** offseasons.

And yet you’re in here trying to sound so reasonable, with all 20 fingers and toes stuck in a leaking dam. Cool. We should all follow.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

There are going to be a lot of solid players just sitting at home training during the NBA season.

So just maybe... just maybe... see if you can follow me here... we should sign one of those guys now and waive NWG... maybe someone could even start a thread about it.

 

[NAOS]

We still got people crying about Shaq Harrison when we signed his younger more talented clone.

Still struggling to see the evidence for this now oft-repeated claim.