Game Thread Jun 16, 2021 08:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Clippers - Game 5

[Handlogten's Heros]

It doesn’t hurt as much because it just isn’t gonna happen this year. Whether it’s this round or next. Mitchell is on one leg and won’t be back to normal until he’s had a month+ of rest. There are not 10 grueling playoff wins left in this roster. Not even close.

Basically I said this in another thread... it’s over... it was before last night... we just didn’t know it.

 

[jom2003]

This is so true. Favors, Niang and Oni shouldn't be on the floor in the series at all, but what is Quin supposed to do? Like, we have no other options. We can play the starters 40 plus but I don't think you can play all 5 of them all 48 minutes, and we have absolutely no other options, the end of our bench is the absolute *****.

A good team should be playing guys who's earned their spot and minutes. Not playing guys because your main guys were sucking and you don't have a choice

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Only because he is.

Short of him coming in and absolutely dominating the next two I am kinda done with this narrative. He is the guy who helps us win most during the regular season but you have to factor in playoffs heavily at this point. He isn’t played off the floor... but he isn’t the most dominant defensive player in the playoffs and his limitations hurt us at the highest levels.

playoff history:
With GS you can say they were the best team ever and so of course he wasn’t going to impact that series. He was also hurt.

With Houston it was he can’t guard Harden and Capela. The defense wasn’t the biggest problem there but he also can’t help the offense enough because he’s really limited there. You can say harden is the best scorer of the era so what you going to do?

With Denver you can say Jokic is a shooting 5 who is the best passing big man so of course Rudy will be limited.

This series is two great wings (last night 1) being surrounded with good talent but nothing so crazy that an all nba defender shouldn’t be able to get the best of them most of the time... but no... they just spread us out and Batum or Mann hits some threes and Jackson takes him off the dribble. Morris and PG just shoot over their defenders (that’s not Rudy’s fault but that is the nba... he doesn’t affect the play).

The contenders all seem to have the kryptonite... Because the kryptonite is many things. He isn’t unplayable at all... he definitely could be part of a championship core but you can’t pay megamax to him and build out the rest of the team like you need to. I also think Quin has used him as a crutch and now we can’t defend like a normal team with rotations and ****... we have to be flexible and Rudy is good enough to say “this is how we play” and you will win 50 games and a playoff series or two.

He was okay last night but can you make his three best defensive plays... he had three defensive plays where he flat out got beat/scored on in the fourth that were just tough to swallow if he’s the best defensive player in the world.

He’s not our best player anymore.

 

[MT Steve]

The people slandering Gobert don't understand that the Jazz, minus Gobert, are an absolutely awful defensive team.

The reason our defensive rating is comically bad when Gobert is off the floor isn't because Favors sucks - it's because Gobert is one of the greatest defenders of all-time, and he is covering up for the giant defeciencies defensively up and down the rest of the roster.

Gobert isn't getting exposed - the rest of the roster is. And yet we keep hearing the brain-dead narrative, further spread by some of our own less knowledgable fans.

 

[MVP]

The problem of the roster is getting exposed by Clippers and injury to Conley. We have no second PG and no player who can play 5 against small ball line ups.

 

[SoUjazzfan]

Remember when we were overachieving underdogs? I liked those times much better than being underachieving favorites.

 

[The Thriller]

The people slandering Gobert don't understand that the Jazz, minus Gobert, are an absolutely awful defensive team.

The reason our defensive rating is comically bad when Gobert is off the floor isn't because Favors sucks - it's because Gobert is one of the greatest defenders of all-time, and he is covering up for the giant defeciencies defensively up and down the rest of the roster.

Gobert isn't getting exposed - the rest of the roster is. And yet we keep hearing the brain-dead narrative, further spread by some of our own less knowledgable fans.

View attachment 10809

The Jazz without Gobert become the blazers. Unless people think Mitchell is better than Dlil. Lol

The issue isn’t with Gobert. The issue is with the other guys. Conley isn’t even playing, Mitchell is hurt, Clarkson and Bogey are nice prices but are limited in what they can do defensively, jingles and favors are aging, Royce is ideally a bench player, and the rest of the roster is crap that prevents us from being flexible and creating matchup problems for other teams.

This guy would prevent the Clippers from going small on us and would’ve made Niang expendable

 

[Sean]

The Jazz without Gobert become the blazers. Unless people think Mitchell is better than Dlil. Lol

I mean, aren't we already? The Blazers ceiling seems to be the semifinals most years and that's where it is for the Jazz.

 

[The Thriller]

I mean, aren't we already? The Blazers ceiling seems to be the semifinals most years and that's where it is for the Jazz.

We need to add pieces. We could’ve added Austin rivers or Torrey Craig instead of Matt Thomas and drafted Jaden McDaniels instead of Udoka. Those two right now would’ve made a huge difference.

This guy would’ve made a huge difference when teams tried to go small on us

 

[toddychurch]

That is stupid. A hard foul doesn't take anyone out of shot making it raises for fight in you. We couldn't hit a shot and that why we lost.

We will still win this series

I disagree and there are plenty of Hall of Fame coaches and players who advocate hard fouls from time to time either to slow someone down or light a fire under their players. We lost because our defensive intensity wasn't there, Morris and then Jackson started hitting shots and Royce is our best perimeter defender. Your second sentence doesn't make any sense anyway, so....I still believe we can win the series.

 

[Sean]

We need to add pieces. We could’ve added Austin rivers or Torrey Craig instead of Matt Thomas and drafted Jaden McDaniels instead of Udoka. Those two right now would’ve made a huge difference.

This guy would’ve made a huge difference when teams tried to go small on us

Sure but a lot of teams need to add pieces.

My biggest concern is that adding pieces only helps if you adjust to them. I think it's clear Quin is content building an offense that shoots its way to victory. The problem is, this has not proven effective in the playoffs by pretty much every team because eventually, when you have to beat the same team four-straight times, you inevitably go cold.

Last night, the Jazz looked like they were on the cusp of figuring it out, how to take advantage of the Clippers small ball, as they started going to the basket and it was effective. But they reverted back to shooting threes and shot themselves out of potentially winning the game.

Where was Quin? I don't know.

But at the end of the day, I said all season the Jazz was a 5 seed parading around as a 1 seed and I believe it. We were a fraud from the start.

 

[MT Steve]

Sure but a lot of teams need to add pieces.

My biggest concern is that adding pieces only helps if you adjust to them. I think it's clear Quin is content building an offense that shoots its way to victory. The problem is, this has not proven effective in the playoffs by pretty much every team because eventually, when you have to beat the same team four-straight times, you inevitably go cold.

Eh

Our offensive rating in this series is 118.2. The best offense in the NBA this season was Brooklyn, clocking in at a 118.3 offensive rating. In Game 5 our offensive rating was 119.3.

Offense is not the problem.

 

[Sean]

Eh

Our offensive rating in this series is 118.2. The best offense in the NBA this season was Brooklyn, clocking in at a 118.3 offensive rating. In Game 5 our offensive rating was 119.3.

Offense is not the problem.

Eh

The Jazz' offense was certainly part of the problem last night lol

The Jazz were 0-10 from three in the third quarter last night. They were 4-7 on two-point shots for a total of 4-17 shooting for the quarter.

In the 4th, they were a bit better but still only 3-11 from three and 4-3 from two for a total of 7-14 from the field.

That's 3-21 from three-point range in the second half last night. That's what, 14%?

Yeah. That's not good. And it was the same story in games three and four, except it was the first half those two games and not the second.

Jazz aren't going to win anything shooting 3-21 from three in a half.

So, yes, it's fine to say the offense was a problem last night.

 

[LoPo]

Short of him coming in and absolutely dominating the next two I am kinda done with this narrative. He is the guy who helps us win most during the regular season but you have to factor in playoffs heavily at this point. He isn’t played off the floor... but he isn’t the most dominant defensive player in the playoffs and his limitations hurt us at the highest levels.

playoff history:
With GS you can say they were the best team ever and so of course he wasn’t going to impact that series. He was also hurt.

With Houston it was he can’t guard Harden and Capela. The defense wasn’t the biggest problem there but he also can’t help the offense enough because he’s really limited there. You can say harden is the best scorer of the era so what you going to do?

With Denver you can say Jokic is a shooting 5 who is the best passing big man so of course Rudy will be limited.

This series is two great wings (last night 1) being surrounded with good talent but nothing so crazy that an all nba defender shouldn’t be able to get the best of them most of the time... but no... they just spread us out and Batum or Mann hits some threes and Jackson takes him off the dribble. Morris and PG just shoot over their defenders (that’s not Rudy’s fault but that is the nba... he doesn’t affect the play).

The contenders all seem to have the kryptonite... Because the kryptonite is many things. He isn’t unplayable at all... he definitely could be part of a championship core but you can’t pay megamax to him and build out the rest of the team like you need to. I also think Quin has used him as a crutch and now we can’t defend like a normal team with rotations and ****... we have to be flexible and Rudy is good enough to say “this is how we play” and you will win 50 games and a playoff series or two.

He was okay last night but can you make his three best defensive plays... he had three defensive plays where he flat out got beat/scored on in the fourth that were just tough to swallow if he’s the best defensive player in the world.

He’s not our best player anymore.

I agree with you. Have thought this same way for a while.

And it's not bashing Rudy to point out the obvious. He has to have a pass first PG to have an impact on a complete side of the court. There isn't another max/supermax player in the NBA who relies so heavily on another player for personal success. Yes he is unique on defense, but he doesn't have the same impact against small ball lineups.

We have to consider the nightmare scenario - what happens if Conley leaves or misses the playoffs again next year? Who is that player out there bringing out the offensive good side of Rudy? Do we dare go into another postseason run watching him only be successful with perfectly placed lobs?

I think it's time to go with Don. That could be with keeping Rudy or trading Rudy. Regardless, we don't need to make any more decisions prioritizing Rudy over Don.

 

[MT Steve]

Eh

The Jazz' offense was certainly part of the problem last night lol

Imagine blaming the offense in a game where they scored at a higher rate than the best offense in NBA history does over the course of a season.

 

[Jazzinho]

Short of him coming in and absolutely dominating the next two I am kinda done with this narrative. He is the guy who helps us win most during the regular season but you have to factor in playoffs heavily at this point. He isn’t played off the floor... but he isn’t the most dominant defensive player in the playoffs and his limitations hurt us at the highest levels.

playoff history:
With GS you can say they were the best team ever and so of course he wasn’t going to impact that series. He was also hurt.

With Houston it was he can’t guard Harden and Capela. The defense wasn’t the biggest problem there but he also can’t help the offense enough because he’s really limited there. You can say harden is the best scorer of the era so what you going to do?

With Denver you can say Jokic is a shooting 5 who is the best passing big man so of course Rudy will be limited.

This series is two great wings (last night 1) being surrounded with good talent but nothing so crazy that an all nba defender shouldn’t be able to get the best of them most of the time... but no... they just spread us out and Batum or Mann hits some threes and Jackson takes him off the dribble. Morris and PG just shoot over their defenders (that’s not Rudy’s fault but that is the nba... he doesn’t affect the play).

The contenders all seem to have the kryptonite... Because the kryptonite is many things. He isn’t unplayable at all... he definitely could be part of a championship core but you can’t pay megamax to him and build out the rest of the team like you need to. I also think Quin has used him as a crutch and now we can’t defend like a normal team with rotations and ****... we have to be flexible and Rudy is good enough to say “this is how we play” and you will win 50 games and a playoff series or two.

He was okay last night but can you make his three best defensive plays... he had three defensive plays where he flat out got beat/scored on in the fourth that were just tough to swallow if he’s the best defensive player in the world.

He’s not our best player anymore.

He is not impactfull in playoffs because teams change their gameplan to take him out of the paint. What if we tried something different that would actually make him play to his strenghts in defense even with small ball lineup? Like defending zone for stretches? Quin refuses to adjust for playoffs, he has been playing the same D from pre-season when we should have tried something different. After 2 straight losses why not change tactics? Why not try different Lineups? or Even players..
Keep Quin for regular season and get anotehr coach for playoffs, he is just too stubborn and non creative.

 

[DasJazz]

Patrick Beverley would be such a perfect fit on our roster.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I agree with you. Have thought this same way for a while.

And it's not bashing Rudy to point out the obvious. He has to have a pass first PG to have an impact on a complete side of the court. There isn't another max/supermax player in the NBA who relies so heavily on another player for personal success. Yes he is unique on defense, but he doesn't have the same impact against small ball lineups.

We have to consider the nightmare scenario - what happens if Conley leaves or misses the playoffs again next year? Who is that player out there bringing out the offensive good side of Rudy? Do we dare go into another postseason run watching him only be successful with perfectly placed lobs?

I think it's time to go with Don. That could be with keeping Rudy or trading Rudy. Regardless, we don't need to make any more decisions prioritizing Rudy over Don.

He's just too limited offensively... I'm not even talking like he needs a jump shot or post moves... I'm talking like when they switch Bev to him he needs to at least be able to seal him and hit a small baby hook like Zubac, Ayton, and other offensively limited centers can.

He can't pass, shoot, handle the ball... his screens are great but impact gets limited by teams that can switch... well all the best teams that have won titles are capable of that. So if you have Don and Mike you might be okay letting them go to work... but then you are really iso heavy and Rudy will just sit in the dunkers spot... can get some offensive rebounds and stuff but I'm not sure that wins you a title.

I've often wondered what the offense would look like with a big that can make passes in the middle of the floor... How much better could the offense get? It might not get better from an offensive rating perspective but you might get a few more quality paint shots to mix in with the threes... I know shooting 40% from three and 60% from 2 has the same point per shot value.... but the variance between those options is huge. Teams routinely go through droughts of 10+ missed threes and that variance can lose games for you... sprinkling in some of the other shots can help you weather those droughts a bit better.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

He is not impactfull in playoffs because teams change their gameplan to take him out of the paint. What if we tried something different that would actually make him play to his strenghts in defense even with small ball lineup? Like defending zone for stretches? Quin refuses to adjust for playoffs, he has been playing the same D from pre-season when we should have tried something different. After 2 straight losses why not change tactics? Why not try different Lineups? or Even players..
Keep Quin for regular season and get anotehr coach for playoffs, he is just too stubborn and non creative.

They've tried it... it doesn't work. Several season in a row we haven't had the defensive answer for a team's actions... All of those teams did it in different ways. I just don't know if you can say Rudy is the best defender in the world if there are several ways to make his team's defense average or well below average.

The scheme should change a bit but a large part of it is personnel. You have to have guys that can get steals and deflections... Players are too good at shooting to just play good position defense and give up contested jumpers. You have to gamble a bit more and get your hands on the ball.

 

[LoPo]

He's just too limited offensively... I'm not even talking like he needs a jump shot or post moves... I'm talking like when they switch Bev to him he needs to at least be able to seal him and hit a small baby hook like Zubac, Ayton, and other offensively limited centers can.

He can't pass, shoot, handle the ball... his screens are great but impact gets limited by teams that can switch... well all the best teams that have won titles are capable of that. So if you have Don and Mike you might be okay letting them go to work... but then you are really iso heavy and Rudy will just sit in the dunkers spot... can get some offensive rebounds and stuff but I'm not sure that wins you a title.

I've often wondered what the offense would look like with a big that can make passes in the middle of the floor... How much better could the offense get? It might not get better from an offensive rating perspective but you might get a few more quality paint shots to mix in with the threes... I know shooting 40% from three and 60% from 2 has the same point per shot value.... but the variance between those options is huge. Teams routinely go through droughts of 10+ missed threes and that variance can lose games for you... sprinkling in some of the other shots can help you weather those droughts a bit better.

I agree completely.

Just imagine our team with Sabonis at center. Yes, we would take a step back on rim protection, but I think we are more balanced overall.