Game Thread Jun 16, 2021 08:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Clippers - Game 5

[MT Steve]

Rudy is great. But the problem is he is like 75 percent of our defense. It's like putting Dame on a team with defensive specialists who cant shoot like Shaq Harrison etc and judge him when he basically doesn't have any spacing at all and has to score 40 every game. Of course it would be easier to scheme against him than, double team him etc. However good one guy is you can always scheme against him.

This is a fantastic comparison.

Rudy's "shortcomings" on defense this series are essentially like Mitchell's "shortcomings" on offense in the Rockets series.

 

[MT Steve]

Last thing I have to say here for now. Rudy can’t and never will win us a playoff game by himself. Mitchell can and has. We get swept 4-0 if he even just scores 25-30 points in Game’s 1 and 2. Think about that. Rudy’s contract is going to look so so so bad in 2-3 years.

The last playoff series we won was because Gobert nullified Westbrook at the rim which completely neutered OKC's whole offense.

 

[Ineptimusprime]

The last playoff series we won was because Gobert nullified Westbrook at the rim which completely neutered OKC's whole offense.

The last playoff series was won against Memphis.

 

[MT Steve]

The last playoff series was won against Memphis.

lol, dammit.

I mean before this year.

 

[Ineptimusprime]

Last thing I have to say here for now. Rudy can’t and never will win us a playoff game by himself. Mitchell can and has. We get swept 4-0 if he even just scores 25-30 points in Game’s 1 and 2. Think about that. Rudy’s contract is going to look so so so bad in 2-3 years.

This is the argument for trading Rudy. The arguments for both keeping and trading Rudy have merit. No one, including the front office, should think otherwise this summer. All avenues should be explored. No one should be clutching pearls at the thought of trading Gobert or keeping Gobert. Really good arguments can be made for both.

If you believe a Mitchell/Gobert core can win us a title with all their chemistry issues, then keep Rudy. If not, trade Rudy now while he has significant trade value and gear up for 3-5 years down the road when LeBron and Kawhi are dead and we are competing with the Lukas of the world.

 

[Jazzmix]

Also I am fed up with those discussions "Don or Rudy, who is more important". They are pretty much equally important on opposite ends of the floor. The problem is with guys in between them. They should give a balanced help on both ends on the floor. We traded toughness on defense and went in all on shooting.
But in the end the most frustrating is that we are losing to the injuries. I would prefer to play against healthy Kawhi with healthy Don and Mike..

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Rudy is great. But the problem is he is like 75 percent of our defense. It's like putting Dame on a team with defensive specialists who cant shoot like Shaq Harrison etc and judge him when he basically doesn't have any spacing at all and has to score 40 every game. Of course it would be easier to scheme against him than, double team him etc. However good one guy is you can always scheme against him.

Rudy is great... but the issue isn't just that he doesn't have help. The issue is too many other teams can dictate the style of play and reduce his impact. Memphis is an average team... he was tremendously effective. Denver has Jokic which then removes Rudy from the paint and negates part of his impact. He deserves more credit against Houston... he helped but wasn't super dominant. Warriors could space him out and cause issues but they had multiple hall of famers... Clips using Batum, Mann, Morris is tough.

Rudy doesn't always get to dictate whether he will impact the game and the consequences of teams adjusting aren't able to be punished enough. The we believe warriors went small and hit a bunch of threes but Boozer murdered them in the paint... Rudy just doesn't have that counter punch.

The strategy we used to build the team may have been the best we had available but it has its limits... unless the NBA or rules change I don't see this core getting a title. Not saying we should trade Rudy... the return would have to be enormous. Rudy could be a vital component of a title team (like Dame) but the other pieces have to be so good and flexible and we have no resources to get one of those pieces.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

This is the argument for trading Rudy. The arguments for both keeping and trading Rudy have merit. No one, including the front office, should think otherwise this summer. All avenues should be explored. No one should be clutching pearls at the thought of trading Gobert or keeping Gobert. Really good arguments can be made for both.

If you believe a Mitchell/Gobert core can win us a title with all their chemistry issues, then keep Rudy. If not, trade Rudy now while he has significant trade value and gear up for 3-5 years down the road when LeBron and Kawhi are dead and we are competing with the Lukas of the world.

I think the chemistry issues are real and present. I think for this to work they both have to have ultimate trust in one another and I don't think they are close to that ideal. Both guys should have done better.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Also I am fed up with those discussions "Don or Rudy, who is more important". They are pretty much equally important on opposite ends of the floor. The problem is with guys in between them. They should give a balanced help on both ends on the floor. We traded toughness on defense and went in all on shooting.
But in the end the most frustrating is that we are losing to the injuries. I would prefer to play against healthy Kawhi with healthy Don and Mike..

Injuries and depth... Even with Mike we had options to find reasonable depth pieces. Might have been enough to duct tape things together for this series.

DL Zanik were married to their projects... DL over the years punted opportunities to use second round picks... we ignored ways to increase roster flexiblity (find a minimum salary backup and use MLE on a wing or perimeter depth)... we decided we only needed one style of play. We got most of the big things right. The Conley trade is fine so long as the pick next year isn't like a mid lotto pick... a little more than I wanted to pay but when everyone was healthy it was clear that Conley and DM and Rudy all work. The Bojan signing was good. Its all the other opportunities we squandered that so many on here said "lolz that is such a small thing to worry about... who cares". Those are the things that kinda screwed us.

Imagine we draft Hart, Brooks, or White instead of doing the Tony Bradley trade. Imagine we draft Bane last year... imagine we hit on one of the second round picks over the last 5 years. What if we had gone with Richaun Holmes instead of Ed Davis... or just super small deals... what if we picked up Craig off the scrap heap and had him out there instead of Niang. It wasn't just the mistake we made it was the thought processes behind those mistakes that just frustrates the hell out of me.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Rudy is great... but the issue isn't just that he doesn't have help. The issue is too many other teams can dictate the style of play and reduce his impact. Memphis is an average team... he was tremendously effective. Denver has Jokic which then removes Rudy from the paint and negates part of his impact. He deserves more credit against Houston... he helped but wasn't super dominant. Warriors could space him out and cause issues but they had multiple hall of famers... Clips using Batum, Mann, Morris is tough.

Rudy doesn't always get to dictate whether he will impact the game and the consequences of teams adjusting aren't able to be punished enough. The we believe warriors went small and hit a bunch of threes but Boozer murdered them in the paint... Rudy just doesn't have that counter punch.

The strategy we used to build the team may have been the best we had available but it has its limits... unless the NBA or rules change I don't see this core getting a title. Not saying we should trade Rudy... the return would have to be enormous. Rudy could be a vital component of a title team (like Dame) but the other pieces have to be so good and flexible and we have no resources to get one of those pieces.

Would rep extremely hard if I could. Basically sums up everything perfectly.

 

[LoPo]

The last playoff series we won was because Gobert nullified Westbrook at the rim which completely neutered OKC's whole offense.

We beat OKC because Gobert played well and Donovan played out of his mind. Rubio played good defense too and Favors was relevant. Rudy's only "excellent" postseason series was against Houston when we went out in Round 1. Donovan struggled but Rudy played pretty well.

 

[Ineptimusprime]

Injuries and depth... Even with Mike we had options to find reasonable depth pieces. Might have been enough to duct tape things together for this series.

DL Zanik were married to their projects... DL over the years punted opportunities to use second round picks... we ignored ways to increase roster flexiblity (find a minimum salary backup and use MLE on a wing or perimeter depth)... we decided we only needed one style of play. We got most of the big things right. The Conley trade is fine so long as the pick next year isn't like a mid lotto pick... a little more than I wanted to pay but when everyone was healthy it was clear that Conley and DM and Rudy all work. The Bojan signing was good. Its all the other opportunities we squandered that so many on here said "lolz that is such a small thing to worry about... who cares". Those are the things that kinda screwed us.

Imagine we draft Hart, Brooks, or White instead of doing the Tony Bradley trade. Imagine we draft Bane last year... imagine we hit on one of the second round picks over the last 5 years. What if we had gone with Richaun Holmes instead of Ed Davis... or just super small deals... what if we picked up Craig off the scrap heap and had him out there instead of Niang. It wasn't just the mistake we made it was the thought processes behind those mistakes that just frustrates the hell out of me.

Yes, lots of small mistakes at the margins that resulted in half the roster being made up of guys that are completely unplayable in the playoffs. Lots of scoring and shooting, very little height or athleticism. No real roster versatility. We have a roster incapable of adapting to certain styles of play if injuries or certain lineups take us out of what we want to do. This series was eye opening in that regard.

DL seems to go all in on whatever he does. In the Rubio/Crowder years, it was defense, defense, defense, now it is shooting, shooting, shooting. It’s honestly a bit like a 13 year old building a roster on 2k. The Matt Thomas move hit this home to me, the rationale must have been nothing more than MOAR SHOOTING.

We beed balance and versatility. Every team left in the conference finals will be balanced and versatile.

Fortunately, we should be able to make a trade or two to balance things out, because we have scoring and shooting to offer in spades to teams looking to trade.

 

[LoPo]

Last thing I have to say here for now. Rudy can’t and never will win us a playoff game by himself. Mitchell can and has. We get swept 4-0 if he even just scores 25-30 points in Game’s 1 and 2. Think about that. Rudy’s contract is going to look so so so bad in 2-3 years.

Exactly what I have been saying for years. Rudy is excellent, but he can't carry us anywhere. I don't think he gets that. And his contract is awful.

 

[LoPo]

Rudy is great... but the issue isn't just that he doesn't have help. The issue is too many other teams can dictate the style of play and reduce his impact. Memphis is an average team... he was tremendously effective. Denver has Jokic which then removes Rudy from the paint and negates part of his impact. He deserves more credit against Houston... he helped but wasn't super dominant. Warriors could space him out and cause issues but they had multiple hall of famers... Clips using Batum, Mann, Morris is tough.

Rudy doesn't always get to dictate whether he will impact the game and the consequences of teams adjusting aren't able to be punished enough. The we believe warriors went small and hit a bunch of threes but Boozer murdered them in the paint... Rudy just doesn't have that counter punch.

The strategy we used to build the team may have been the best we had available but it has its limits... unless the NBA or rules change I don't see this core getting a title. Not saying we should trade Rudy... the return would have to be enormous. Rudy could be a vital component of a title team (like Dame) but the other pieces have to be so good and flexible and we have no resources to get one of those pieces.

Really good post

 

[MT Steve]

We beat OKC because Gobert played well and Donovan played out of his mind. Rubio played good defense too and Favors was relevant. Rudy's only "excellent" postseason series was against Houston when we went out in Round 1. Donovan struggled but Rudy played pretty well.

Donovan was terrific, but our offense was very meh overall.

We held OKC to an offensive rating that would've been 27th in the regular season that year. Gobert made their offense just flat out not work.

 

[LoPo]

Donovan was terrific, but our offense was very meh overall.

We held OKC to an offensive rating that would've been 27th in the regular season that year. Gobert made their offense just flat out not work.

Rudy played great no doubt. Offensively, we had no weapons. We had rookie Donovan flanked by Ingles and athletes. They blanketed Joe and dared Donovan to torch them. And he did.

OKC was a very poorly run unit. Melo was jacking terrible shots as was Westbrook. Rudy was a big presence, but he was to the defense what Don was to the offense. Moreso in that series than any other.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yes, lots of small mistakes at the margins that resulted in half the roster being made up of guys that are completely unplayable in the playoffs. Lots of scoring and shooting, very little height or athleticism. No real roster versatility. We have a roster incapable of adapting to certain styles of play if injuries or certain lineups take us out of what we want to do. This series was eye opening in that regard.

DL seems to go all in on whatever he does. In the Rubio/Crowder years, it was defense, defense, defense, now it is shooting, shooting, shooting. It’s honestly a bit like a 13 year old building a roster on 2k. The Matt Thomas move hit this home to me, the rationale must have been nothing more than MOAR SHOOTING.

We beed balance and versatility. Every team left in the conference finals will be balanced and versatile.

Fortunately, we should be able to make a trade or two to balance things out, because we have scoring and shooting to offer in spades to teams looking to trade.

He moves to the extremes and does so too late. The fact that it took him two years to decide the Favs/Rudy/Ricky thing was maybe not the best is a great example... the Crowder at the 4 lineups should have given him all the proof he needed.

Lets talk Matt Thomas... If you watch him he has a very ordinary release... maybe even a little slow. Its flat too... he's small... he will never be able get that thing off at a volume that is meaningful. If you watch him as a GM and then move to get him when he is not a guy you need at all I just have no idea why you should be getting a check for evaluating basketball things. He is a defensive liability of the highest magnitude as well. I'd love to say there is some master plan but when our front office does stupid **** and I wait to see the end game it more often than not does not manifest at all.

 

[One Brow]

You can't get bested by those three guys in those situations if you are the best defender in the world... you just can't.

No one ever has, or ever will, play a flawless quarter of defense in the NBA. To be clear, I am absolutely not saying Gobert didn't mess up on the plays you describe; I trust your description there.

I don't think supermax players need to be perfect. They do need to make their team much better, and I agree Gobert still has room to grow in the playoffs there.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

No one ever has, or ever will, play a flawless quarter of defense in the NBA. To be clear, I am absolutely not saying Gobert didn't mess up on the plays you describe; I trust your description there.

I don't think supermax players need to be perfect. They do need to make their team much better, and I agree Gobert still has room to grow in the playoffs there.

Defense is tough... only really notice if you block a shot get a steal or get scored on. There were just opportunities for him to win those plays and he didn't.

Other guys had screw ups too. Don took a truly awful shot but the game was kinda in hand... he needs to realize his current limitations and not try some of those prayers.

I just think guys like Giannis, Rudy, Ben Simmons are incredibly talented and great but their limitations may lead to more playoff failings than they would for your standard great players. You can't always get Lebron, AD, Kawhi, KD that seemingly can do everything and aren't guys anyone can really stop... its tough. We also have to realize that their limitations aren't things that can always be corrected with schemes or different talent around them.

Even Jokic... his defensive short comings as a center and defensive anchor may limit him from getting a title. As an offensive force he might have more say in that then the guys that hang their hats on defense.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Sigh.. almost like what I have been saying last night through this morning.