Jazz Offseason Plan

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'm not sure there is too much to take away from this finals for the Jazz. This year the two healthiest teams won. In my opinion a healthy Jazz team would have had a great chance against either team. Next year a healthy Nets and a Lakers team with Chris Paul or Mike Conley will be the heavy favorites. If the goal for next year is title or bust, we should be thinking about how to match up with those teams.

Here are the biggest ways to improve the Jazz:
- Donovan commits to playing defense
- Rudy improves hands and finishing plays against smaller defenders
- Add some length, athleticism, versatility without sacrificing too much shooting

I wish there was more emphasis on getting Gobert early duck-ins early in semi-transition. If Gobert can park himself 3 feet from the rim, all he has to do is pivot and he's usually going to get fouled or finish. I have no hope for him actually learning consistent post-moves, the center of gravity is too high and his body moves too awkwardly.

That and possibly learning a 10-15' jumper just to make his short roll a bit more respectable. I just don't think Quin or Rudy are really willing to experiment w/ that stuff too much.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I wish there was more emphasis on getting Gobert early duck-ins early in semi-transition. If Gobert can park himself 3 feet from the rim, all he has to do is pivot and he's usually going to get fouled or finish. I have no hope for him actually learning consistent post-moves, the center of gravity is too high and his body moves too awkwardly.

That and possibly learning a 10-15' jumper just to make his short roll a bit more respectable. I just don't think Quin or Rudy are really willing to experiment w/ that stuff too much.

The first part is what I would love too but I just feel he gets pushed off his spot too easily because his center of gravity is high. Because he is already kind of awkward they hardly ever call lower body contact like that even though it should be a foul. I worry he can't catch, hold his ground, and finish well enough to make it something that is a huge win. It would be nice if he could do something similar on switches and duck in for a basket when a guard take him.

I just don't think he has it in the bag. One way I think he could be more effective is adding an awesome offensive rebounder next to him. So when teams like the clips do a good job keeping him off the glass it opens up opportunities for someone to eat. Rudy Gay is a guy I've wanted for a while and I think he'd be excellent at that.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The first part is what I would love too but I just feel he gets pushed off his spot too easily because his center of gravity is high. Because he is already kind of awkward they hardly ever call lower body contact like that even though it should be a foul. I worry he can't catch, hold his ground, and finish well enough to make it something that is a huge win. It would be nice if he could do something similar on switches and duck in for a basket when a guard take him.

I just don't think he has it in the bag. One way I think he could be more effective is adding an awesome offensive rebounder next to him. So when teams like the clips do a good job keeping him off the glass it opens up opportunities for someone to eat. Rudy Gay is a guy I've wanted for a while and I think he'd be excellent at that.

Yeah, but there are times when he does the early duck in and he gets ignored. Gobert's problems with hands come more in traffic than when he has space to breath. I think sometimes Donovan gets too discouraged by Gobert when he drops the harder passes that he even hesitates to deliver him the easy ones. Really my biggest issue with Donovan's passing is that he still has yet to learn how to consistently make the right pass, not just the highlight one

 

[infection]

I wish there was more emphasis on getting Gobert early duck-ins early in semi-transition. If Gobert can park himself 3 feet from the rim, all he has to do is pivot and he's usually going to get fouled or finish. I have no hope for him actually learning consistent post-moves, the center of gravity is too high and his body moves too awkwardly.

That and possibly learning a 10-15' jumper just to make his short roll a bit more respectable. I just don't think Quin or Rudy are really willing to experiment w/ that stuff too much.

I think the offensive limitations and not being able to punish small ball is 50% Rudy and 50% Quin.

 

[infection]

The first part is what I would love too but I just feel he gets pushed off his spot too easily because his center of gravity is high. Because he is already kind of awkward they hardly ever call lower body contact like that even though it should be a foul. I worry he can't catch, hold his ground, and finish well enough to make it something that is a huge win. It would be nice if he could do something similar on switches and duck in for a basket when a guard take him.

I just don't think he has it in the bag. One way I think he could be more effective is adding an awesome offensive rebounder next to him. So when teams like the clips do a good job keeping him off the glass it opens up opportunities for someone to eat. Rudy Gay is a guy I've wanted for a while and I think he'd be excellent at that.

Being able to add a rebounder on either end of the floor would be huge. It’s one reason why small ball can kill us because we still have Rudy go up to contest while also having no rebounding. Or worse have his guy shooting threes and Quin is comfortable with committing to neither keeping Rudy back or having him go to the perimeter, but instead stay in the midrange and watch them bury threes or tap out balls for offensive boards. A Nance would be a good solution to that because it would facilitate being able to have a lot of the (defensive) success we had with Rudy/Derrick lineups while mitigating the significant offensive issues.

 

[LoPo]

I think the offensive limitations and not being able to punish small ball is 50% Rudy and 50% Quin.

Yep.

It's just weird that if we find a way to make it to the Finals next year, we'll play probably either Milwaukee who we match up great against or Brooklyn who we match up so poorly against. Like Cy has been saying, I love our matchup with the Bucks. But I really hate our matchup with the Lakers, Clippers, and Nets.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm not sure there is too much to take away from this finals for the Jazz. This year the two healthiest teams won. In my opinion a healthy Jazz team would have had a great chance against either team. Next year a healthy Nets and a Lakers team with Chris Paul or Mike Conley will be the heavy favorites. If the goal for next year is title or bust, we should be thinking about how to match up with those teams.

Here are the biggest ways to improve the Jazz:
- Donovan commits to playing defense
- Rudy improves hands and finishing plays against smaller defenders
- Add some length, athleticism, versatility without sacrificing too much shooting

Both teams in the finals had great health luck... that is almost always the case. My big beef has been that the FO operated as a though we were only a "kind of" contender. The went "all in" with big moves but the fringe moves seemed like "kind of" in moves. I've brought up Torrey Craig 6,000 times but that is the illustration. Milwaukee has Pat Connaughton, Donte Divencenzo, and Bryn Forbes... So when Donte gets hurt and Forbes becomes unplayable... you rely more on Pat. We had Niang... who is kinda like Forbes. Useful sometimes but others you need a Craig or Harkless... We didn't feel we could get that guy because they wouldn't be in the rotation. Injuries happen, matchup challenges happen, not being prepared with options is inexcusable imo. These teams were lucky but they also provided themselves with some luck by having multiple options on the bench. Some got mothballed along the way.

None of this changes our ultimate destiny since Mike and Don weren't anywhere near 100%. But even if they were we didn't have the critical depth on the fringes to win. Using the MLE differently and adding one vet minimum that worked out would have been pretty huge. At least we could have discovered if 5-out works or if we can competently switch if we add some perimeter defenders... we don't really know yet. We don't know if Quin will even go there if he has enough defenders... because we didn't give him options.

Maybe DL just wanted to get paid for not working for a couple years... but if he wanted to stick around he absolutely should have provided Quin with some options to cover his ***. I think he may have done the George Castanza when he wanted to get fired by the Yankees. DL to himself "Drafting Doke and signing Favs to full MLE didn't do it... I know... I will give up a second for some meaningless guy that couldn't possibly help us. I wonder if Massai is still up?"

@infection will appreciate that reference.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah, but there are times when he does the early duck in and he gets ignored. Gobert's problems with hands come more in traffic than when he has space to breath. I think sometimes Donovan gets too discouraged by Gobert when he drops the harder passes that he even hesitates to deliver him the easy ones. Really my biggest issue with Donovan's passing is that he still has yet to learn how to consistently make the right pass, not just the highlight one

I agree he gets ignored but I believe that might be because the guys don't have faith in him. Its like when I play pickup ball and guys go to spots where they think they should get the ball... but I've played with them for years and know how it will turn out.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Being able to add a rebounder on either end of the floor would be huge. It’s one reason why small ball can kill us because we still have Rudy go up to contest while also having no rebounding. Or worse have his guy shooting threes and Quin is comfortable with committing to neither keeping Rudy back or having him go to the perimeter, but instead stay in the midrange and watch them bury threes or tap out balls for offensive boards. A Nance would be a good solution to that because it would facilitate being able to have a lot of the (defensive) success we had with Rudy/Derrick lineups while mitigating the significant offensive issues.

I'm not sure Nance is gettable with our middling assets. I might actually prefer Rudy Gay. We are in a place where we have to buy the off brand Mac and Cheese because we don't have the assets for Kraft. Just have to hope its just as good.

The thing I liked about Nance is that:
1- he plays in Cleveland with terrible perimeter guys... so there might be more there we don't see.
2- He does some of the things you want a big to do but he also is very disruptive... but I think he was kind of turned loose by the coach... so not sure how disciplined it is. I probably wouldn't mind it either way at this point.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I agree he gets ignored but I believe that might be because the guys don't have faith in him. Its like when I play pickup ball and guys go to spots where they think they should get the ball... but I've played with them for years and know how it will turn out.

Yeah, but a lot of times you just got to trust people because the result of not trusting is worse (though this is different than pickup obviously). Like, idk, sometimes the players on the Jazz just have no idea how to make a pass easy. Like I vividly remember Royce driving and throwing an absolute heater of a pass at Rudy's head from like 7 feet away for no reason when it could have easily just been a soft dump off. Obviously that's a skill some players just don't have, the ability to adjust your pass to fit the situation.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I think the offensive limitations and not being able to punish small ball is 50% Rudy and 50% Quin.

I would say it's more on Gobert, there just has to be more emphasis on finding the spots Gobert can win a matchup and creating those when they can. Like the duck-in thing I'm thinking of probably only has a chance of happening a couple of times a game, but that's 4 potential easy points and something that can make Gobert feel more engaged offensively.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yep.

It's just weird that if we find a way to make it to the Finals next year, we'll play probably either Milwaukee who we match up great against or Brooklyn who we match up so poorly against. Like Cy has been saying, I love our matchup with the Bucks. But I really hate our matchup with the Lakers, Clippers, and Nets.

I don't think we need to worry about the Clips next year. I think Leonard sits the year or leaves. There is some smoke out there with him.

If the Nets are fully healthy they will beat everyone... they were an inch away from beating the Bucks with just KD. I also think KD playing as much as he did in the playoffs and following it up with the Olympics is gonna be a bad recipe for him next year. Kyrie is a complete wildcard. I expect Harden to be healthy.

I think the Lakers are worse next year unless they figure out how to snake CP out of Phoenix. AD is constantly nursing something. Lebron starting to show some mortality... next year they will be as thin or thinner than they were this year. I think Rudy is actually really good to have but the defenders around him need to be a little better. He can negate AD. They are very much a defensive team and I think we can hit enough shots against them.

I feel pretty good about the team if we nail the fringe moves and stay opportunistic through the trade deadline this year. JZ is really an interim GM imo so I think he will be active and try to prove himself... could be good or bad... but I think he will be aggressive as hell.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah, but a lot of times you just got to trust people because the result of not trusting is worse (though this is different than pickup obviously). Like, idk, sometimes the players on the Jazz just have no idea how to make a pass easy. Like I vividly remember Royce driving and throwing an absolute heater of a pass at Rudy's head from like 7 feet away for no reason when it could have easily just been a soft dump off. Obviously that's a skill some players just don't have, the ability to adjust your pass to fit the situation.

I agree. I think you throw that a few times just to get him super engaged... and yes the heater drop off passes in traffic around his hips are gonna be tough for him to catch and finish... and my god the low bounce passes.

One thing I would also love to see... when Rudy ****s up the catch don't get all pissy with him (lookin at you Don)... I'd also love to see Rudy not get pissy when they choose not to throw it. That's the think I see most about the Bucks (in addition to talent). Everyone has one goal... Giannis ain't pissy with Holiday and Middleton are missing... they aren't pissy when Giannis decides to shoot the pullup three with 18 seconds on the shot clock. I just don't think we have that level of buy in right now... I think we had it in the past but egos have grown a bit.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I heard something on the radio before last night's game that booker had taken like 30 4th quarter shots in the series and had zero 4th quarter assists.
Anyone know what his 4th quarter was like last night?

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I don't recall.. I just know Holiday absolutely smothered him. Booker had a couple easy looks late he missed though.

 

[LoPo]

I don't think we need to worry about the Clips next year. I think Leonard sits the year or leaves. There is some smoke out there with him.

If the Nets are fully healthy they will beat everyone... they were an inch away from beating the Bucks with just KD. I also think KD playing as much as he did in the playoffs and following it up with the Olympics is gonna be a bad recipe for him next year. Kyrie is a complete wildcard. I expect Harden to be healthy.

I think the Lakers are worse next year unless they figure out how to snake CP out of Phoenix. AD is constantly nursing something. Lebron starting to show some mortality... next year they will be as thin or thinner than they were this year. I think Rudy is actually really good to have but the defenders around him need to be a little better. He can negate AD. They are very much a defensive team and I think we can hit enough shots against them.

I feel pretty good about the team if we nail the fringe moves and stay opportunistic through the trade deadline this year. JZ is really an interim GM imo so I think he will be active and try to prove himself... could be good or bad... but I think he will be aggressive as hell.

I'm making the assumption that the Clippers stay together. If they do, they will give us fits unless we alter the roster some.

I agree about the Nets. They destroy us if we are both healthy.

I think a full healthy LeBron and AD would be major trouble for us. If they get value for Shroeder and Kuzma while bringing back Caruso and THT, they have what it takes to beat us as we're currently constructed.

If Phoenix stays intact, they match up well with us. Denver could have our number as well if Murray comes back to what he was.

I like our chances to be relevant, but I don't like our chances to win a title as currently constructed. Part of me is leaning towards S&T Conley for two good pieces rather than just having him. We are that thin.

 

[infection]

Both teams in the finals had great health luck... that is almost always the case. My big beef has been that the FO operated as a though we were only a "kind of" contender. The went "all in" with big moves but the fringe moves seemed like "kind of" in moves. I've brought up Torrey Craig 6,000 times but that is the illustration. Milwaukee has Pat Connaughton, Donte Divencenzo, and Bryn Forbes... So when Donte gets hurt and Forbes becomes unplayable... you rely more on Pat. We had Niang... who is kinda like Forbes. Useful sometimes but others you need a Craig or Harkless... We didn't feel we could get that guy because they wouldn't be in the rotation. Injuries happen, matchup challenges happen, not being prepared with options is inexcusable imo. These teams were lucky but they also provided themselves with some luck by having multiple options on the bench. Some got mothballed along the way.

None of this changes our ultimate destiny since Mike and Don weren't anywhere near 100%. But even if they were we didn't have the critical depth on the fringes to win. Using the MLE differently and adding one vet minimum that worked out would have been pretty huge. At least we could have discovered if 5-out works or if we can competently switch if we add some perimeter defenders... we don't really know yet. We don't know if Quin will even go there if he has enough defenders... because we didn't give him options.

Maybe DL just wanted to get paid for not working for a couple years... but if he wanted to stick around he absolutely should have provided Quin with some options to cover his ***. I think he may have done the George Castanza when he wanted to get fired by the Yankees. DL to himself "Drafting Doke and signing Favs to full MLE didn't do it... I know... I will give up a second for some meaningless guy that couldn't possibly help us. I wonder if Massai is still up?"

@infection will appreciate that reference.

George was actually proactive. He had a plan to get Bonds and Griffey in the same outfield without giving up much. It may have not worked, but at least he was trying. He was willing to make the phone calls.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Use taxpayer MLE for Gay, Batum, OP jr. - I will also consider Bazemore or part of it for a guy like Nader. Worst case do a 2 year MLE offer for Mo Harkless... second year is non-guaranteed.

Use a minimum on Nwaba, Sterling Brown, McGruder, Langston Galloway, Neto... If you draft a pg maybe lean more towards a shooting guard.

Worst case you have Harkless in the Niang minutes and maybe posing as a small ball 5 (probably optimistic but he is a big wing). Hopefully Galloway can be the 10 minute a night guy that can play more if Mike or Joe need to sit. He can play either guard spot but is better as an offball guy. The bench units rely on JC to handle a lot so Galloway is helpful as a solid defender and good shooter.

Hope Udoka or our pick this year pan out... find an opportunistic trade for Favs. It isn't huge waves but could be really solid if we are healthy.

I really just wish we rolled the MLE out for Jamychal Green last year... Use Udoka when you needed a real center... or sign a minimum guy. I really just wan to see what we can do with this group when we have a stretch small ball 5 but also when we need to size up.

 

[KqWIN]

I know this is a thread about personnel change, but no matter who we add I think the most limiting factor on this team is Quin's defensive coaching. Some would argue that he simply didn't have the personnel, but he didn't build the right habits with his players. Even the Clippers sent repeated double teams at the ball despite having multiple all defense level perimeter defenders. Help has to come in some way no matter who is guarding the ball, it's about how the other guys guard a man down and that's where the Jazz are lost.

It's obvious that asking Gobert to do everything doesn't work in the playoffs but it's not going to be fixed by having better perimeter defenders, going small, or even better off ball defenders. Quin has to put the principles in place and he has shown zero ability to do that so far. I don't think you can overhaul your defensive philosophy by swapping out a few faces.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I know this is a thread about personnel change, but no matter who we add I think the most limiting factor on this team is Quin's defensive coaching. Some would argue that he simply didn't have the personnel, but he didn't build the right habits with his players. Even the Clippers sent repeated double teams at the ball despite having multiple all defense level perimeter defenders. Help has to come in some way no matter who is guarding the ball, it's about how the other guys guard a man down and that's where the Jazz are lost.

It's obvious that asking Gobert to do everything doesn't work in the playoffs but it's not going to be fixed by having better perimeter defenders, going small, or even better off ball defenders. Quin has to put the principles in place and he has shown zero ability to do that so far. I don't think you can overhaul your defensive philosophy by swapping out a few faces.

Yup... its just tough to say Quin should do that when the roster says that is impossible (maybe).

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Already rumblings on CP and LA... Phoenix would need to participate in that type of deal... would be similar to what CP did to get to Houston... he opts in and then the Lakers send Kuzma, THT, Schroeder to Phoenix for Paul. The issue is that Phoenix could have like 27M in space should CP just opt out. I think they could do better with their space than with what the Lakers send back.

Westbrook is the other option they are looking at. Same type of deal Kuzma and some sign and trade guys for Westbrook. They'd be paper thin... I would be all for this deal... do it Lakers.