Building around Donovan or Gobert

[SoberasHotRod]

- Donovan does one thing at an elite level, putting up shots, and he's become more and more efficient at it every year. It is definitely an extremely valuable skill and something many good teams are lacking to become great. He's short, a bad defender, and only an average playmaker. In order to have an elite team around him you would need: Good size at every other position, good defenders at every other position, good shooters to open the floor for him, good rebounders, and at least one other player on the floor who can make plays.

- Gobert is an elite defensive player at all levels, but is hall of fame level at defending the rim. He's an elite rebounder, rim runner and great screen setter. He can't create his own shot. He's not a good distributor. In 5 out basketball a lot of his super powers are negated. In order to have an elite team around him you would need: Players that can get their own shot, good shooters at every other position, average defenders, and ideally multiple pnr ball handlers that can throw lobs. At $40MM per year, you don't have a lot of cap space to find those players.

Ironically Gobert and Donovan fit really well next to each other, but they needed better size/defense around them and at this point I don't think our current assets can get us there. They also don't trust each other, creating multiple on the court and off the court issues that has kept the team back. I don't think keeping them together is really an option.

Building around Donovan seems more difficult to me than building around Gobert, but neither really seems that probable to me.

 

[Avery]

The correct answer is neither, but they’re going to try with DM as he has the balls of this franchise lovingly placed in the palm of his hand.

 

[KqWIN]

There really isn’t a player in the league that is enough on their own. Jokic is incredible, and DEN still got completely blasted because his team is awful. IMO, it’s not really a useful exercise to think about players on their own because they can’t win on their own. Every player in the league needs shooters, playmakers, and defenders around them.

Don and Gobert are a good combo. They need each other, not necessarily because they fit perfectly together (they are decent considering strengths/weaknesses)….but because they are really good players and you need really good players to win.

I still think the off court stuff is overblown. I do think they dislike each other and there’s truth to the idea that they cannot play together anymore. But one thing that’s been consistent in their relationship is that it’s good when their winning and terrible when their losing. The partnership fell apart when their belief in winning together disappeared. The personal stuff would have been brushed aside if they could just win.

They had reason to believe they could win. The FO kept nearly the exact same team with the exact same weaknesses and expected something different. This was a colossal failure by the FO. Things would be a lot different if they actually addressed their weaknesses instead of refusing to believe they exist. Same goes for Quin.

This franchise has largely ignored any weaknesses they have, instead choosing to believe that they can win anyways. The results speak for themselves, and the consequence of their inaction is a premature breakup of the Don-Rudy combo. Chances are neither player will have a better chance to win while in their prime and the Jazz as a franchise will likely have to wait decades to have this chance again. It’s a rare and privileged position to have two players of this caliber on the same team.

 

[LoPo]

If we would have been this desperate and upset 3 years ago, we would have seen the signs and addressed the roster accordingly.

We didn't.

 

[416Klawzz]

Do not bring them both back that would be a compromise changing the supporting cast around those two is just a water down retooling.
It will only result in disappointments again!

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'd be interested to see what's the best "win now" package we could get for Mitchell.

Tyler Hero/Max Strus/Duncan Robinson/Caleb Martin/Two First Rounders (their 30th pick this season and like a 2026 unprotected pick)

I wouldnt be shocked if Hero could replace 110% of what Mitchell does, then everything else is icing on the cake.

*That's probably one player too many at the least. Would most likely have to take out Martin or Strus*

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

To piggyback off my last post, basically any Miami Heat deal that includes Herro and picks could end up being a huge win for Utah.

It's a gamble. I dont 100% think Herro >= Mitchell, but I think it's definitely possible that if you put Herro in Mitchell's spot, he'd play better.

 

[Elizah Huge]

I'd be interested to see what's the best "win now" package we could get for Mitchell.

Tyler Hero/Max Strus/Duncan Robinson/Caleb Martin/Two First Rounders (their 30th pick this season and like a 2026 unprotected pick)

I wouldnt be shocked if Hero could replace 110% of what Mitchell does, then everything else is icing on the cake.

*That's probably one player too many at the least. Would most likely have to take out Martin or Strus*

To piggyback off my last post, basically any Miami Heat deal that includes Herro and picks could end up being a huge win for Utah.

It's a gamble. I dont 100% think Herro >= Mitchell, but I think it's definitely possible that if you put Herro in Mitchell's spot, he'd play better.

I would go as far to say as I guarantee with the type of looks he would get with our spacing and shot creating he could at minimum replace 90% of what Mitchell does. I’m all for that kind of deal. He’s bigger than him and younger too which is just an added bonus. Add in Robinson plus other pieces and picks then it’s a home run.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I would go as far to say as I guarantee with the type of looks he would get with our spacing and shot creating he could at minimum replace 90% of what Mitchell does. I’m all for that kind of deal. He’s bigger than him and younger too which is just an added bonus. Add in Robinson plus other pieces and picks then it’s a home run.

I actually really dont want Robinson, but you have to take back Robinson to make any kind of Mitchell deal work.

If you are just replacing the two, it's going to end up pretty much just like the Mitchell/Gobert from this year (but maybe a bit better because team chemistry could be better).

Ideally I would include some third team where Robinson goes, and maybe we deal 1-2 of Bogey/Clarkson/Conley.



Had this brain fart of an idea, but I kind of hate the idea of trading Conley. I don't want to make Tyler Herro my starting PG and there just arent that many good starting level PG's left. Conley was *** in the playoffs, but he was still overall very good in the regular season. I think he has at least one more year left in him and then he becomes more tradeable the following year.

I think Caruso/Clarkson could be swapped, especially if LaVine leaves the Bulls. That would give the Jazz some kind of starting PG placeholder until they find a better option (maybe Jared Butler gets good).

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Jazz would have:

Caruso/Butler/Forrest/Smith
Herro/Royce
KCP/
Bogey/Kuzma/Gay
Gobert

Jazz would have to address backup center. Work to add another wing (would probably have to play Kuzma at the 3 more than ideal).

I dont know. Would kind of be a rough team as far as shot creation goes. Ideally Butler takes some kind of massive step as a shot creator. Maybe the Jazz can hit a homerun at the 30th pick and get some sort of immediate contributor (Christian Braun/EJ Liddell/Wendell Moore/Jabari Walker).

 

[416Klawzz]

I'd be interested to see what's the best "win now" package we could get for Mitchell.

Tyler Hero/Max Strus/Duncan Robinson/Caleb Martin/Two First Rounders (their 30th pick this season and like a 2026 unprotected pick)

I wouldnt be shocked if Hero could replace 110% of what Mitchell does, then everything else is icing on the cake.

*That's probably one player too many at the least. Would most likely have to take out Martin or Strus*

Who would you want for Gobert?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Who would you want for Gobert?

To compete around Mitchell or be bad for draft picks?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

We won't be able to "build" around Donovan. He won't be here long enough... so its more a remodel to get the house ready for a sale. It sounds super fun to sit through a year of construction to hopefully get the amount of money back we spend in the remodel.

I also don't think Rudy is good enough for long enough to build around. He has a couple years more at his peak if healthy and I think the end could be more like a cliff than a slow decline.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

We won't be able to "build" around Donovan. He won't be here long enough... so its more a remodel to get the house ready for a sale. It sounds super fun to sit through a year of construction to hopefully get the amount of money back we spend in the remodel.

I also don't think Rudy is good enough for long enough to build around. He has a couple years more at his peak if healthy and I think the end could be more like a cliff than a slow decline.

One big positive about Gobert vs Mitchell tho is that Gobert will be cheaper on his next deal. I dont think Gobert is just going to fall off. I think he will decline, and then his next contract he will be in the 15-20 range (at least equivalent to what that is now in regards to total cap). I also have hopes he will eventually bust out a Brooks Lopez-esque career redefining 3pt shot at some point.

The thing with Mitchell is that he is going to put up big stats, so he's going to get a max or near max on his next deal as well.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

We were a team that was supposed to be two young stars and one vet star in Conley. Conley kinda slowed down and didn't quite live up to that (though he did play well). We just needed that third star or we needed Donovan to become a superstar. Donovan's best chance to do that was to be a two way player... maybe not quite like Kawhi but maybe on the level of Tatum on defense... or the guard version of that. He has not become anything near that either because he doesn't have it in him or he doesn't want to put in enough effort... I don't think some magic switch flips now... he's had lots of time and opportunity.

This team has just run its course. If Joe, Mike, and Bogey were all going to be the 2020 versions of themselves for us next year then run it back and mend the fences... or you would be able to move some of them to get some difference makers... or maybe I could even see trading Rudy or Donovan to make different version of the contending team. Joe is done here... Mike is very likely to decline (his age is the age where small guards fall off a cliff and he's showing signs of being cooked). Bogey likely is close to what he has been. Its just over... we can fight it for a year and try around Donovan but just know it is almost certainly going to fail.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

One big positive about Gobert vs Mitchell tho is that Gobert will be cheaper on his next deal. I dont think Gobert is just going to fall off. I think he will decline, and then his next contract he will be in the 15-20 range (at least equivalent to what that is now in regards to total cap). I also have hopes he will eventually bust out a Brooks Lopez-esque career redefining 3pt shot at some point.

The thing with Mitchell is that he is going to put up big stats, so he's going to get a max or near max on his next deal as well.

I think you are overly optimistic on Rudy. I'm trying to think of comps... not sure old Mutombo could play in today's NBA. DeAndre Jordan and Roy Hibbert didn't age well but neither moved as well as Rudy or were ever committed to playing half as hard as Rudy does.

I'd be fine keeping and paying Donovan even... its the fact that he's likely on his way out in the next 18 months and doing short term moves to appease a player has almost always ended in disaster. Like say he signed an extension or exercised his player option... you might be able to nail a pick or two or get some young guys in the Rudy trade that pop and you have something to build. If we take a step back next year can anyone say with a straight face that Donovan will be happy and patient?

 

[Jingled]

I still think they're both going to be here next year. Ryan Smith's number one priority right now seems to be the all-star game, which I think is incredibly stupid. They're going to try to re-tool around them by trading two or three of Conley, Bogey, Royce and Clarkson. This article from Jake Fischer seems to confirm my suspicions.

Much of the leaguewide conversation regarding the potential split of three-time Defensive Player of the Year Rudy Gobert and three-time All-Star Donovan Mitchell seems to have been generated by NBA actors outside of the Jazz franchise.

The 2023 NBA All-Star Game will be in Salt Lake City, a detail that multiple league sources connected to the Jazz have painted as a critical element of the franchise's future plans. It's of great importance to Jazz governor Ryan Smith that Utah has multiple players in that midseason classic, sources said, similar to how the Cavaliers were represented by both Darius Garland and Jarrett Allen during the 2022 affair in Cleveland. It's also clear that Smith is willing to financially support a contender, and Utah leadership has no designs of entering any sort of rebuild.

Utah's steadfast commitment to Mitchell has naturally led rival executives to paint Gobert as the more likely trade candidate should the Jazz explore breaking up the duo. Dallas, Atlanta and Toronto are the potential Gobert destinations that have been discussed most among league personnel. But while Jazz figures have clearly recognized their roster's need for defensive improvements, moving on from Gobert would seem directly counterintuitive to fixing those shortcomings.

League personnel speak far more certainly of the Jazz looking to explore moving complementary pieces such as wings Bojan Bogdanovic and Royce O'Neale. That could introduce All-Star point guard Mike Conley into an interesting point guard market that seems to be developing this summer.

View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10035491-nba-offseason-buzz-all-eyes-on-utah-jazz-stars-knicks-lakers-pelicans-rumors

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I still think they're both going to be here next year. Ryan Smith's number one priority right now seems to be the all-star game, which I think is incredibly stupid. They're going to try to re-tool around them by trading two or three of Conley, Bogey, Royce and Clarkson. This article from Jake Fischer seems to confirm my suspicions.







View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10035491-nba-offseason-buzz-all-eyes-on-utah-jazz-stars-knicks-lakers-pelicans-rumors

The AS is so important... we can trade the "face of the franchise" after that. That won't look bad at all.

The all-star game shouldn't even be a thought... or ever mentioned... and it is mentioned at every damned turn.

 

[LoPo]

We won't be able to "build" around Donovan. He won't be here long enough...

You don't know that, but you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Jingled]

The AS is so important... we can trade the "face of the franchise" after that. That won't look bad at all.

The all-star game shouldn't even be a thought... or ever mentioned... and it is mentioned at every damned turn.

I don't think the all-star game is going to go the way Ryan Smith think's it is...all the talk during all-star weekend is still going to be all about the drama between Rudy and Don and whether or not Don really wants to be here, how long before he asks for a trade, etc. It's not going to accomplish whatever Ryan think's it is, in fact it's likely to completely backfire.