What's new
By:

Donovan as Point Guard

SoberasHotRod

SoberasHotRod

Well-Known Member
2025 Award Winner
Lots of talk on the need to move Donovan to Point Guard. Does anybody have a good place to look up his most recent stats as PG?

I found the following on NBA.com for 5man lineups. Here is a comparison of our starting lineup last year vs Subbing out Conley for Clarkson:

OFFRTG DEFRTG AST% REB%
Starting Lineup 117.1 110.5 57.8 51.0
Sub Clarkson for Conley 106.5 104.5 58.2 53.8

I also looked up Donovan's matchup data and it appears we are better at defense when he is guarding a guard vs a forward. The other team scores 1.26 pts/poss when he is guarding a forward, but only 1.02 pts/poss when he is guarding a guard. On offense it doesn't really matter if Donovan is being guarded by a guard or forward. We score 1.17 pts/poss when he is being guarded by a guard and 1.2 pts/poss when he is being guarded by a forward.

Does anybody have any other good data they can find?

My personal opinion of watching Don play point guard is our offense gets more difficult to watch. There isn't as much ball movement, and Donovan's usage goes way up. It looks like what I'm finding somewhat backs that up, except that our AST% is actually slightly higher. I wouldn't have guessed by watching the games that our defense improves quite a bit with Mitchell as PG, but it makes sense that we are a much longer team that way.
 
Hard to really evaluate it objectively because he was just playing their for stretches which is much different then being the teams primary playmaker.
 
YoungJefe said:
Hard to really evaluate it objectively because he was just playing their for stretches which is much different then being the teams primary playmaker.
Click to expand...
Also especially this past season his minutes without Mike were way more centered around him as unlike the prior season, there wasn't even minor sequences of hotter than lava Clarkson (that weren't there for the entirety of the previous season, but was still something for a big chunk of it's first half), nor an Ingles effective pnr to alternate creation/possessions.
 
Donovan has been the PG for the last two seasons when they made the adjustment to have Conley more off-ball after the 1st season with Utah.

Rename the thread "Donovan as your mega-usage star with no primary help" because that's what will happen this year if they traded Conley without getting starter level creation back.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Donovan has been the PG for the last two seasons when they made the adjustment to have Conley more off-ball after the 1st season with Utah.

Rename the thread "Donovan as your mega-usage star with no primary help" because that's what will happen this year if they traded Conley without getting starter level creation back.
Click to expand...

This is fair. I guess our guards have been somewhat position less for awhile. I guess what I'm referring to is a Donovan lineup without another playmaking guard next to him, similar to some of the lineups I'm seeing in the trade proposals for Mike (KCP as an example).

I do think there is quite a bit of data to learn from. I'm just not sure what the best way to find it would be.
 
I don’t really care about what position he plays, it’s just a label. Historically he has had much higher usage but kept the same efficiency, which is good, but that doesn’t have to do anything with the “position” he’s playing. It’s who he’s sharing the court with.

I think it’s important that Don can play with at least one more creator, it’s tough in this league to get by with just one creator on the court. It’s also very important that Don plays with someone who can guard wings if we intend to continue to allow him to be a zero defense player.

PS: for all your stats needs go to pbpstats.com
 
SoberasHotRod said:
This is fair. I guess our guards have been somewhat position less for awhile. I guess what I'm referring to is a Donovan lineup without another playmaking guard next to him, similar to some of the lineups I'm seeing in the trade proposals for Mike (KCP as an example).

I do think there is quite a bit of data to learn from. I'm just not sure what the best way to find it would be.
Click to expand...
We will see what happens when the flow of the offense is 100% on Donovan 100% of the time he is on the court.

The thing is that in the Conley years we would go through stretches of Donovan inspired stagnation, but there was always Conley there to break it up.

Now it will pretty much be on Donovan to get the team into a flow. I think that will be the biggest change. It will be on him, so he will either learn how to develop those subtle PG skills, or he won't and Utah's offense won't be elite anymore.

I hope Utah does the smart thing though and at least trades Clarkson to get a more ball movement oriented ball-handler off the bench. Maybe that is Jared Butler, but I hope it's a Delon Wright. Or maybe Forrest develops a Delon Wright level 3pt shot and that isnt necessary. I just don't think Clarkson has a place on this team without Conley. I think Clarkson would greatly increase the odds of Donovan failing (or not being as successful) as he could be (think it would lead to a lot of your turn/my turn on offense when they share the court). Plus I really think we need to make sure Donovan is the weakest link defensively. It's too much work to hid him as is, we can't compound it with more bad defenders.
 
It can work as long as we install a point forward like Jingles or a playmaking big man like prime Diaw. Split the ball handling duties. Let Donovan focus more on attacking the rim and worry less about running the offense. Like how Celtics makes the Final with Smart at the point.
 
It's crazy to think that the Jazz were one of the worst passing teams last year, if not the worst. It was easily the worst passing team I have ever watched in my 25 years of being a Jazz fan. The recognition on passes was so slow. We were just bad at passing on every level.


View: https://twitter.com/The_BBall_Index/status/1538990076415430656


Advanced stats back it up

The scary thing: Mike Conley was our best rated passer. We all want to go all in on defense/athleticism (so do I) but it's concerning to think about how bad our passing will be unless the new coach is able to change our culture to get back to ball movement. Quin was the world's biggest preacher of ball movement though (the Hayward years and even early Donovan years were crazy high amount of passes, even though the passing talent was still low).

The crazy thing to think is how much better can Gobert be on a team that has better passing talent.

The key is really to trade Clarkson. Utah has to develop a better passing culture. Donovan can definitely be a part of that, I just don't think you can have someone like Clarkson next to Donovan or it's going to enable his hero ball habits by getting into a your turn/my turn style of play.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
It's crazy to think that the Jazz were one of the worst passing teams last year, if not the worst. It was easily the worst passing team I have ever watched in my 25 years of being a Jazz fan. The recognition on passes was so slow. We were just bad at passing on every level.


View: https://twitter.com/The_BBall_Index/status/1538990076415430656


Advanced stats back it up

The scary thing: Mike Conley was our best rated passer. We all want to go all in on defense/athleticism (so do I) but it's concerning to think about how bad our passing will be unless the new coach is able to change our culture to get back to ball movement. Quin was the world's biggest preacher of ball movement though (the Hayward years and even early Donovan years were crazy high amount of passes, even though the passing talent was still low).

The crazy thing to think is how much better can Gobert be on a team that has better passing talent.

The key is really to trade Clarkson. Utah has to develop a better passing culture. Donovan can definitely be a part of that, I just don't think you can have someone like Clarkson next to Donovan or it's going to enable his hero ball habits by getting into a your turn/my turn style of play.
Click to expand...


I'm curious how the passing versatility stat is calculated?
 
KqWIN said:
I don’t really care about what position he plays, it’s just a label. Historically he has had much higher usage but kept the same efficiency, which is good, but that doesn’t have to do anything with the “position” he’s playing. It’s who he’s sharing the court with.

I think it’s important that Don can play with at least one more creator, it’s tough in this league to get by with just one creator on the court. It’s also very important that Don plays with someone who can guard wings if we intend to continue to allow him to be a zero defense player.

PS: for all your stats needs go to pbpstats.com
Click to expand...

Ah, thanks for the reminder on pbpstats. I had forgotten about it. Didn't have exactly what I was looking for, but I was able to find some more information there.
 
jom2003 said:
It can work as long as we install a point forward like Jingles or a playmaking big man like prime Diaw. Split the ball handling duties. Let Donovan focus more on attacking the rim and worry less about running the offense. Like how Celtics makes the Final with Smart at the point.
Click to expand...

Anybody you can think of like that who would be available? Ingles was pretty unique.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
I'm curious how the passing versatility stat is calculated?
Click to expand...

It's the uniqueness of passes....which means different types of passes (passes to cuts, roll man, drive and kick etc.) and different locations. It doesn't surprise me that the Jazz are low because there are almost zero passes to the mid range (by design) and we don't have much all off ball action. Almost all of our offense starts in PnR, where we either pass to the big, kick out to a shooter, or the ball hander shoots the shot. It's not really surprising in that we rank low here, but it doesn't mean we're necessarily bad at passing. We just don't throw a wide variety of passes. In their overall playmaking grade the Jazz rank 7th despite being last place in versatility.
 
I thought Don molded his game to Dwade? so he needs a Mario Chalmer type pg running mate. I dont know if he can really be a facilitator PG.
As much as i like Conley he has proven time and time again that he is just a regular season guy. Top notch stats, very efficient, borderline allstar, then come playoffs time he become invisible. 0 points, travelling on a playoff game. teams just put a long defender on Conley then he shrinks. if he can't deliver then he takes Rudy's offense down with him. when Jazz traded for him everybody labelled us Championship bound, it was glorious time to be a jazz fan. fast forward, we are still the same. If all Conley bring us is regular season goodies, then we don't need him. We need playoff caliber players.
 
KqWIN said:
I don’t really care about what position he plays, it’s just a label. Historically he has had much higher usage but kept the same efficiency, which is good, but that doesn’t have to do anything with the “position” he’s playing. It’s who he’s sharing the court with.

I think it’s important that Don can play with at least one more creator, it’s tough in this league to get by with just one creator on the court. It’s also very important that Don plays with someone who can guard wings if we intend to continue to allow him to be a zero defense player.

PS: for all your stats needs go to pbpstats.com
Click to expand...
IMO it's more important defensively than offensively. We've seen Donovan can be the primary offensive creator to a good offense. The problem is when he shares the floor with another small guard defensively. Now ideally if you replace Conley you would get a wing who can defend but also has some offensive initiator traits(in essence we need younger Joe Ingles). Unfortunately, those are really rare and expensive so... we will have to pick and choose what path we go. There are no perfect solutions in the situation we are in now.
 
jom2003 said:
It can work as long as we install a point forward like Jingles or a playmaking big man like prime Diaw. Split the ball handling duties. Let Donovan focus more on attacking the rim and worry less about running the offense. Like how Celtics makes the Final with Smart at the point.
Click to expand...
Offer the Spurs Rudy for Murray and Potel so Quin can be reunited w/him next year.
 
stitches said:
IMO it's more important defensively than offensively. We've seen Donovan can be the primary offensive creator to a good offense. The problem is when he shares the floor with another small guard defensively. Now ideally if you replace Conley you would get a wing who can defend but also has some offensive initiator traits(in essence we need younger Joe Ingles). Unfortunately, those are really rare and expensive so... we will have to pick and choose what path we go. There are no perfect solutions in the situation we are in now.
Click to expand...

It’s not really important that a secondary creator is his backcourt partner, but I think any team needs a second creator. Not Donovan specific…but it’s really important.

The defense is Donovan specific, so I get your point. It just amazes me how we allowed him to completely remove himself from that end of the floor.

Quin was beloved by his players, but it’s clear he was some what of a people pleaser and Don’s attitude towards the defensive end was a sacrifice for the loyalty Don showed Quin throughout.
 
KqWIN said:
It’s not really important that a secondary creator is his backcourt partner, but I think any team needs a second creator. Not Donovan specific…but it’s really important.

The defense is Donovan specific, so I get your point. It just amazes me how we allowed him to completely remove himself from that end of the floor.

Quin was beloved by his players, but it’s clear he was some what of a people pleaser and Don’s attitude towards the defensive end was a sacrifice for the loyalty Don showed Quin throughout.
Click to expand...
I'm on the record that IMO the biggest mistake of this team's FO and Quin made was their failure to back up Gobert when he demanded defensive accountability from his perimeter teammates and instead of their full support he got a cold shoulder and "we shouldn't air our dirty laundry" type of response. None of them have played any sort of defense since. It's all been 100% reliance on Rudy to cover for everyone else on the team defensively. It's so weird because Quin has actually done it before - he's benched players and refused to play them for not giving effort. He played freaking rookie Dante Exum 82 game only so he wouldn't have to play Trey Burke. They just completely failed to demand any sort of responsibility on one side of the court from not just Donovan, but most of the rest of perimeter defenders. You are never going to achieve anything of substance in this leage when 7 of 9 players in the playoff rotation, just refuse to even try to stay in front of their man or even make a simple rotation on the perimeter. It's just not going to happen, no matter if you have the most outstanding defender of the generation or not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top