4th of July and Religion

[JazzGal]

Maybe so. I also was not in Utah and was somewhere more diverse. There wasn't a race or ethnicity that was a majority, and the diversity of religions or no religion was much greater than Utah. Living in Utah both as a member of the LDS church or not as a member of it is much different than somewhere else. Honestly I think it's a much different experience outside of the core of where most church member historically have been the majority. Much of what we learn in life is reading between the lines to go along with what is in text. While it still exists, I felt that there was less being fake and less hypocrisy outside of Utah. It could have to do with the pressure to conform to a majority, or not wanting to feel different or outside of something. I'm not sure exactly.

Either way, that was just my understanding from my life experience. Maybe it was location, maybe it was times changing and maybe it was an intentional change of rhetoric or focus? I don't know other than to say what I have lived and my communications with those I know.

I do know that there are always things we as individuals or we as groups of people with whatever organizations we have, can do better. I like to think that both try to improve and fix things that need fixed.

I'm going to hold on to my view and hope that church members in whatever country they are in support that country as much as they can, and strive to make a positive difference where they can. I hope people helping people can be a main focus.

I'm sorry your experience was not as positive as mine was. I don't like it when someone or some group tries to pressure me to be something or do something. It has to make sense to me, and on my own timetable.

Great, now I'm rambling. Thanks for your posts. I'll leave it at that.

I lived in Utah all of my life since I was 4, and I agree that your experience is a lot different than mine based on what others have told me about being in Utah versus elsewhere. While the church was not a great fit for me, I stayed active in it until my late 30s and resigned membership in my early 50s. Most of my family is still all in, so it is a part of my life whether I want it to be or not. The teachings of the 60s and 70s, though while not actively taught anymore, are still handed down from generation to generation to a certain extent. I'm glad there is less of an "us vs. them" mentality anymore, and less American exceptionalism taught. Sadly, we are getting that from politics now perhaps more than religion.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I lived in Utah all of my life since I was 4, and I agree that your experience is a lot different than mine based on what others have told me about being in Utah versus elsewhere. While the church was not a great fit for me, I stayed active in it until my late 30s and resigned membership in my early 50s. Most of my family is still all in, so it is a part of my life whether I want it to be or not. The teachings of the 60s and 70s, though while not actively taught anymore, are still handed down from generation to generation to a certain extent. I'm glad there is less of an "us vs. them" mentality anymore, and less American exceptionalism taught. Sadly, we are getting that from politics now perhaps more than religion.

I'd agree on it being heavy in politics. I've never been a I'm better than you, or we're better than you type of person and I think that's why politics bothers me so much. There are huge divisions and an us against them mentality and an I'm better than you mentality. I don't like it. I don't like it in politics, in religion, or in cultures. There is good and bad in all. We should try to love, understand, listen to, and help everyone on all fronts. I know that's wishful thinking, but I hate the fighting, bickering, and divisiveness in today's world... and in today's US. It sounds like your experience was pretty different than mine, and I wish it wasn't.
Either way, deep down I think we all want to be heard, listened to, and loved no matter what. I hope you get that no matter your situation. Honestly I hope/wish everyone gets this.
Thanks for your posts over the years. You are genuine, and I appreciate that.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Great thoughts here. I wouldn't consider myself "overly-patriotic", but I love my country and consider myself fortunte to live here. Despite what some might suggest, there are a lot of places much worse. Overall, we are certainly less patriotic of a country than we were a generation or two ago. My Dad showed me some old pictures of the 4th of July when he was a kid, basically every house was flying the US flag. It would be interesting if there was a measurement of how "patriotic" a country's citizens were. I've always found that Canadians and the British have quite a lot of patriotic zeal. When I was in Beijing a few years ago, the national flag was flying everywhere, although that might just be due to the large number of government buildings.

One thing I noted from your comment was the idea that the US was founding on principles you believe in. I've come to realize more and more over time that most Americans feel the same way. We believe in life, liberty, and ther pursuit of happiness. We believe in Freedom and equility. Our differences lie in our interpretation of those concepts, and the ideal means to achieve them.

China/Chinese are very nationalistic. They have very strong feelings about how great China is and are very proud of China. They put their flag on everything. Its pretty similar to USA in that regard of national pride and even more so, due to lots of propaganda. Their daily news has a section which is terrible things in other countries followed by all the great things China is doing. It is super cheesy and obvious propaganda but people dont really have other sources in general and eat it up. Even educated smart people here who have VPNs and read other news get caught up with the propaganda pretty easily, its hard to avoid. Plus their is a strong distrust of outside news due to the fact its pretty negative against China in general and often is biased against China. So people will tend to believe what their side is saying. But I think that is changing a lot lately with some of the covid stuff happening here. But no one thinks they can make a difference so its choosing to move away or just live with that. There is no option to have any protest or voice against. The only way things would ever really change is if the economy takes a huge hit and people have significantly worse standard of living. Its hard to be upset when your parents/grandparents and so on generation in China lived in extreme poverty and saw the biggest economic turnaround in human history over a short period of time.

Sorry not all this is related, but obviously on my mind a lot as I am living in China for awhile and planning to move away soonish. But will always be tied to China and visit regularly.

 

[Red]

With as obsessed as you seem to be with fascism, I do not understand how you are completely failing to see it develop right in front of you. And no it isn’t among Trump followers.

Most people know Hitler was a failed artist and he was the leader of the Nazi party but they know almost nothing of how he went from one to the other. Hitler started out as a Communist no different from a zillion other artists who talk up socialism. He was a member of the German SPD party which was Marxist but they were a soft Marxism so Hitler left the SPD to follow Jewish Socialist leader Kurt Eisner to overthrow the Wittelsbach monarch in Bavaria to form the People’s State of Bavaria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_State_of_Bavaria

The People’s State of Bavaria was Marxist but it did not follow the dictates of Stalin’s Soviet Union. A short time later, Kurt Eisner was assassinated and Hiter joined the even harder-line Bavarian Soviet Republic which was a Marxist state that did align with Stalin’s Soviet Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic

That is where the Nationalist-Socialist worker’s party of Germany sprang from. Nazi Germany was a blended economy with centralized state control being run by a leader steeped in socialist economic ideas and Stalinist police-state practices.

This very moment there is a big, powerful nation that evolved from a Marxist state but is now a blended economy with centralized state control being run by a leader steeped in socialist economic ideas and Stalinist police-state practices. They even have concentration camps and are in the midst of a massive military buildup.

If with the obvious example right in front of your face you still think it is America becoming a fascist nation, I’m thinking that paper you wrote back in college didn’t give you the insight you seem to believe it does.

I think you miss the point entirely if you’re depending entirely on your understanding of Hitler’s background, or European fascism in general. As Churchwell said in her essay:

“its claims to speak for “the people” and to restore national greatness mean that each version of fascism must have its own local identity. To believe that a nationalist movement isn’t fascist because it’s native is to miss the point entirely.”

I think not understanding the above led some people early on in Trump’s appearance on the national scene to throw all those silly Hitler and Nazi comparisons out there. We really should expect a unique Americanized specie of a fascistic movement. How could it not be uniquely American in character? I do think we are seeing just that. It concerns me, what can I say. But, not important if you or I don’t see eye to eye.

Maybe you could register to read her article. Costs nothing for one article. She’s not the only scholar to recognize the original version of the KKK was actually the first fascist organization of the modern era. You might find it thought provoking at least. Or not.

Anyway, yeah, I learned a lot studying the intellectual roots of European fascism a lifetime ago, but my learning did not come to a screeching halt in 1972. My concerns are with an Americanized specie of a fascistic movement.

It’s certainly possible I just instinctively recognized Trump as a right wing populist, after all, it’s not like it was a mystery to be unraveled, but I did believe at the time that my studies a lifetime ago helped me understand.

I really do believe that the past informs the present, and therein lies the value of understanding history.

I look for conditions affecting a society, affecting a cultural group, an ethnic group, etc., that would lend itself to the rise of right wing populism. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, and it helps me understand the present. What are the internal societal conditions conducive to a flourishing right wing populism? I think that’s what one should look for, not direct comparisons. Once you get to the “Trump is our Hitler” stage, you lose everyone.

But what I am trying to understand is a meaningful pursuit to me. I know you don’t agree, but I think you think I’m on a page that I’m not on at all. I’m sure we’ll continue to not see eye to eye, and likely just talk past each other. That’s OK too….

American Fascism: It Has Happened Here | Sarah Churchwell

“When Americans think of dictators they always think of some foreign model,” wrote the anti-fascist journalist Dorothy Thompson in the mid-1930s, but an American dictator would be “one of the boys, and he will stand for everything traditionally American.” And the American people, Thompson added...

www.nybooks.com

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I think you miss the point entirely if you’re depending entirely on your understanding of Hitler’s background, or European fascism in general.

It isn't 'European" but fascism in general that I base my understanding of fascism on. All you are doing by claiming that ours is unique is admitting that we don't fit within the bounds of fascism but you really want to use the word. I am not a fan of concept creep, sometimes called 2+2=5, where terms are stretched to justify an otherwise unsupportable claim.

Fascism is inextricably linked to a set of economic organizational concepts. If Trump's proposals fall within those economic organizational concepts then point them out. I don't think you can. I don't see anything out of Trump economically that was even as fascist as FDR's short-lived NIRA, and even that was nothing compared to China today which is well within the four corners of fascism.

 

[Safetydan]

China/Chinese are very nationalistic. They have very strong feelings about how great China is and are very proud of China. They put their flag on everything. Its pretty similar to USA in that regard of national pride and even more so, due to lots of propaganda. Their daily news has a section which is terrible things in other countries followed by all the great things China is doing. It is super cheesy and obvious propaganda but people dont really have other sources in general and eat it up. Even educated smart people here who have VPNs and read other news get caught up with the propaganda pretty easily, its hard to avoid. Plus their is a strong distrust of outside news due to the fact its pretty negative against China in general and often is biased against China. So people will tend to believe what their side is saying. But I think that is changing a lot lately with some of the covid stuff happening here. But no one thinks they can make a difference so its choosing to move away or just live with that. There is no option to have any protest or voice against. The only way things would ever really change is if the economy takes a huge hit and people have significantly worse standard of living. Its hard to be upset when your parents/grandparents and so on generation in China lived in extreme poverty and saw the biggest economic turnaround in human history over a short period of time.

Sorry not all this is related, but obviously on my mind a lot as I am living in China for awhile and planning to move away soonish. But will always be tied to China and visit regularly.

No, It's totally relevant because, often, it will show that many are uncomfortable with chinese nationalism but find murica's nationalism completely innocuous. I think living abroad was mentioned earlier and Gameface talked about traveling with the navy. Some learn the wrong lessons but many, who live abroad with a semblance of empathy and open-mindedness, will see the US through the lens of the people of the world. The view from outside the imperial core is very different.

 

[One Brow]

It isn't 'European" but fascism in general that I base my understanding of fascism on. All you are doing by claiming that ours is unique is admitting that we don't fit within the bounds of fascism but you really want to use the word. I am not a fan of concept creep, sometimes called 2+2=5, where terms are stretched to justify an otherwise unsupportable claim.

Fascism is inextricably linked to a set of economic organizational concepts. If Trump's proposals fall within those economic organizational concepts then point them out. I don't think you can. I don't see anything out of Trump economically that was even as fascist as FDR's short-lived NIRA, and even that was nothing compared to China today which is well within the four corners of fascism.

You seem to be identifying fascism primarily by its economic components. This is not standard usage.

Definition of FASCISM

a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

The primary components of fascism would be the elevation of the nation (or head of state) over the citizenry and a centralized autocracy. Trump wasn't fully fascist, but he moved the government in that direction in every way except economically.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

The primary components of fascism would be the elevation of the nation (or head of state) over the citizenry and a centralized autocracy.

Your definition is so broad as to be worthless. By your definition, how is Stalin's Soviet Union not considered fascist? Communism, like fascism, is inextricably linked to a set of economic organizational concepts.

 

[One Brow]

Your definition is so broad as to be worthless. By your definition, how is Stalin's Soviet Union not considered fascist? Communism, like fascism, is inextricably linked to a set of economic organizational concepts.

Not my definition, Merriam-Webster's determination of how the term is used.

Stalin's Soviet Union elevated the worker over the state. That's kind of the whole of point of Communism, at least rhetorically.

Just out of curiosity, what do you feel should be the economic markers of fascism that differentiate it from communism?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Just out of curiosity, what do you feel should be the economic markers of fascism that differentiate it from communism?

The single biggest economic difference between fascism and communism is in how each handle property rights for private citizens.

....And no workers were not above Stalin's state apparatus. Utopian communism may be that way but the USSR under Stalin definitely was not.

 

[One Brow]

The single biggest economic difference between fascism and communism is in how each handle property rights for private citizens.

So, you're saying the reason that Trump was not approaching fascism was because of his record supporting property holders?

Trump's Terrible Record on Property Rights

The President's recent threat to use "the military version of eminent domain" to seize property for his border wall is just the tip of a larger iceberg of policies and legal positions inimical to constitutional property rights.

reason.com

New report details Trump effort to seize thousands of acres of private land for border wall

The Justice Department has filed more than 100 lawsuits against landowners to seize their property along the U.S.-Mexico border.

www.cbsnews.com

Donald Trump versus the Founding Fathers: Private property rights are the cornerstone of liberty

Private property has always had a unique place in American society. The Founding Fathers recognized that government exists to protect private property. They were influenced by Enlightenment-era philosophers John Locke and Adam Smith, who believed the right to property was a fundamental, natural...

www.freedomworks.org

....And no workers were not above Stalin's state apparatus. Utopian communism may be that way but the USSR under Stalin definitely was not.

I don't think anyone believes Stalin had a utopian communism. Then again, we have no utopian nor prototypical governments of any kind. Despite his many ugly actions, Stalin rhetorically emphasized the rewards for individuals as opposed to putting the state over individual happiness.

"But the policy of our Party would not be worth a farthing, were it not for the truly friendly support it receives from the vast masses of non-Party workers. Indeed, our Party is strong precisely because it has the support of the masses of non-Party workers. That, comrades, should never be forgotten."

"The collective farm has liberated women, and made her independent by means of the work-days. She no longer works for her father when she is unmarried, but works primarily for herself. And that is just what is meant by the emancipation of peasant women; that is just what is meant by the collective farm system which makes the working woman the equal of every working man. Only on these grounds, only under these conditions could such splendid women arise. That is why I regard today's meeting not as just an ordinary meeting of prominent people with members of the government, but as a solemn day, on which the achievements and capabilities of the emancipated labour of women are being demonstrated. I think the government ought to confer distinctions on the heroines of labour who have come here to report their achievements to the government."

 

[Al-O-Meter]

So, you're saying the reason that Trump was not approaching fascism was because of his record supporting property holders?

No. I told you the single biggest difference between fascism and communism.

I don't think anyone believes Stalin had a utopian communism.

Yes. That is why what you said about Stalin's Soviet Union was ridiculous. As for the rest of your Soviet propaganda, it is propaganda. The Soviet Union under Stalin was not a worker's paradise. Everyone in that system is a slave. The state owns everything including any fruits of a worker's labor. Nothing was above Stalin in Stalin's Soviet Union and that includes the worker.

 

[One Brow]

No. I told you the single biggest difference between fascism and communism.

Lest we forget, we started this discussion from you saying:

Fascism is inextricably linked to a set of economic organizational concepts. If Trump's proposals fall within those economic organizational concepts then point them out.

Mission Accomplished.

Yes. That is why what you said about Stalin's Soviet Union was ridiculous. As for the rest of your Soviet propaganda, it is propaganda.

Much like Hitler's worship of the German state was propaganda. I don't see how that affects the rhetorical distinction between communism and fascism.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Mission Accomplished.

Much like Hitler's worship of the German state was propaganda. I don't see how that affects the rhetorical distinction between communism and fascism.

We weren't talking rhetorical distinctions. Your question was about economical organizational distinctions, and even that question didn't reference Trump. I suspect you are on meds or have a good level of blood alcohol. You are prone to moving goalposts but in this exchange you aren't even trying to connect dots.

 

[One Brow]

We weren't talking rhetorical distinctions.

Conversations tend to wander all over the place. You asked how the Soviet Union was different, and I pointed out a rhetorical difference.

Your question was about economical organizational distinctions, and even that question didn't reference Trump. I suspect you are on meds or have a good level of blood alcohol. You are prone to moving goalposts but in this exchange you aren't even trying to connect dots.

I should have been more clear: you seem confused about the nature of property rights under fascist governments. Property rights were eroded under Hitler/Mussolini/Franco, just as they were under Stalin/Mao/etc. You'll see very few autocratic governments that respect the rights of private property.

I'm quite serious that the primary differences between autocratic communist regimes and autocratic fascist regimes seems to be rhetorical, with the occasional minor sop thrown to support that rhetoric.

 

[Red]

All you are doing by claiming that ours is unique is admitting that we don't fit within the bounds of fascism but you really want to use the word. I am not a fan of concept creep, sometimes called 2+2=5, where terms are stretched to justify an otherwise unsupportable claim.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. All I’m doing is something that I’ll likely never finish. Trying to understand the various streams that fed into the rise of Trump, and Trumpism. Imagine the effort involved in trying not only to see all the relevant streams feeding into a popular movement, but see them all at once, as if one were standing outside time itself. I know I’m not up to it, I don’t have the intellect for such a task, but the effort is still compelling to me. Because, in my head, I can “see” the synthesis I’m trying to work out, but actually finding the words, etc. is so difficult. And, as said, I’m not likely up to it in the last analysis.

One exercise I’ve used my whole life in trying to understand the times in which I live is to try and somehow extricate myself from my own time and place: I’m from another planet, and I’m observing this life form known as human beings. Of course, it’s impossible, it’s like trying to see the world for the very first time, but under the hope that any little bit helps, I try that approach at times. Or, if one can’t see the forest for the trees, back up far enough until one does see the forest. Another tool is to simply follow my own advice: never sleepwalk through that portion of History’s narrative that is you’re to live. Which is where the past informing the present comes in, it helps prevent sleepwalking through the history of one’s own time and place.

I am trying to understand the age and the moment in which I am living. And it is so very difficult. Churchwell’s essay helped. I’m in student mode. Till the day I pass I imagine. Good luck with your own efforts to understand this time and place.

 

[Red]

Surprised not to run into a paywall here….

The Far-Right Christian Quest for Power: ‘We Are Seeing Them Emboldened’

Political candidates on the fringe mix religious fervor with conspiracy theories, even calling for the end of the separation of church and state.

www.nytimes.com

 

[BabyPeterzz]

This is happening in Texas. “Freedom Caucus” legislators want to be cops too. We’re staring theocracy in the face. Women and those protecting them will be hunted. They will go full fascist if we let them.

texas-sidley-letter.pdf

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bigb]

I have a different take and experience than others in this thread.

I've always understood that we celebrate and support whatever country we are in to the best of our abilities and while there work to make things better from within.
The teaching that stood as the backbone of this was for me Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

For me that means supporting the country I live in, and also for me that means knowing the pledge of allegiance and at times singing the national anthem.
We have at times sung the national anthem at church meetings around the 4th.
While I don't have an extensive travel history, I had always hoped that meant the national songs/anthems/pledges or whatever is equivalent were supported in those other countries.

The church is not necessarily in support of the US, but is in support of and/or respects all countries and encourages members to adhere to laws in the country they live in.

This is definitely not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is as a whole in support of the US and that the US is better than any and all other countries. My take is that we are in support of people. All people.

I did my mission in Honduras. I can tell you, at no point ever is the Honduran National Anthem sung in a church meeting. Honduran Independence Day is a big thing. It’s celebrated like crazy. There is a big national rivalry between Honduras and its neighboring countries. They all think they’re better than the others. But I was never in a church meeting where anything patriotic was ever discussed or mentioned.

 

[fishonjazz]

I did my mission in Honduras. I can tell you, at no point ever is the Honduran National Anthem sung in a church meeting. Honduran Independence Day is a big thing. It’s celebrated like crazy. There is a big national rivalry between Honduras and its neighboring countries. They all think they’re better than the others. But I was never in a church meeting where anything patriotic was ever discussed or mentioned.

I think that honduras (roatan island) is my favorite place I have ever been. Hawaii is up there but honduras was even better. Of course I was only there for like 7 hours but holy crap the beach I was on was the best of all time and I have been on a lot of beaches all over the world.