4th of July and Religion

[Jazz Spazz]

I remember about 12ish years ago I was attending an LDS singles ward. I was the Sunday School president. This one Sunday we had some exchange students from Germany attend. I welcomed them and asked if they’d like to sit next to me. This was the Sunday before the 4th. One of the “hymns” sung during sacrament meeting, which is the primary meeting for LDS people, was the national anthem. The students reacted with shock. We got talking and it hit me, why were we singing the national anthem in a Christ-centered meeting? How is this inclusive to others? Christianity doesn’t recognize other nationalities, as we’re all children of god who have made mistakes. Marrying religion with politics or country (nationalism) is dangerous. This was again, 2009-2010ish?

Has anyone else had this type of experience before?

I have a different take and experience than others in this thread.

I've always understood that we celebrate and support whatever country we are in to the best of our abilities and while there work to make things better from within.
The teaching that stood as the backbone of this was for me Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

For me that means supporting the country I live in, and also for me that means knowing the pledge of allegiance and at times singing the national anthem.
We have at times sung the national anthem at church meetings around the 4th.
While I don't have an extensive travel history, I had always hoped that meant the national songs/anthems/pledges or whatever is equivalent were supported in those other countries.

The church is not necessarily in support of the US, but is in support of and/or respects all countries and encourages members to adhere to laws in the country they live in.

This is definitely not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is as a whole in support of the US and that the US is better than any and all other countries. My take is that we are in support of people. All people.

 

[JazzGal]

No mixed feelings here. I think Bill Pullman is the best film president in cinematic history. The cast is great. The special effects still hold up and the character design of the aliens is solid. The clip of the alien ship blowing up the White House with the helicopter in the foreground is nothing short of iconic. I watched the film with my son this past weekend. His favorite part was right after the main weapon had fired on NYC and a wave of flame was engulfing everything, Vivica Fox's character rushed out of her car with her kid in her arms to kick open a maintenance door to escape certain death when the shot cuts to her dog still standing in the road. She calls to the dog who leaps around cars to make it through the maintenance door just as the wall of flame reached them. Great stuff. I don't know how anyone could be on the fence about that movie.

Haha. I love this movie as well.

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[JazzGal]

I have a different take and experience than others in this thread.

I've always understood that we celebrate and support whatever country we are in to the best of our abilities and while there work to make things better from within.
The teaching that stood as the backbone of this was for me Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

For me that means supporting the country I live in, and also for me that means knowing the pledge of allegiance and at times singing the national anthem.
We have at times sung the national anthem at church meetings around the 4th.
While I don't have an extensive travel history, I had always hoped that meant the national songs/anthems/pledges or whatever is equivalent were supported in those other countries.

The church is not necessarily in support of the US, but is in support of and/or respects all countries and encourages members to adhere to laws in the country they live in.

This is definitely not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is as a whole in support of the US and that the US is better than any and all other countries. My take is that we are in support of people. All people.

You must be much younger than me. This is not at all how it was when I was growing up. As they tried to become more of an international church in the 80s, the rhetoric was toned down some.

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[Jazz Spazz]

You must be much younger than me. This is not at all how it was when I was growing up. As they tried to become more of an international church in the 80s, the rhetoric was toned down some.

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Maybe so. I also was not in Utah and was somewhere more diverse. There wasn't a race or ethnicity that was a majority, and the diversity of religions or no religion was much greater than Utah. Living in Utah both as a member of the LDS church or not as a member of it is much different than somewhere else. Honestly I think it's a much different experience outside of the core of where most church member historically have been the majority. Much of what we learn in life is reading between the lines to go along with what is in text. While it still exists, I felt that there was less being fake and less hypocrisy outside of Utah. It could have to do with the pressure to conform to a majority, or not wanting to feel different or outside of something. I'm not sure exactly.

Either way, that was just my understanding from my life experience. Maybe it was location, maybe it was times changing and maybe it was an intentional change of rhetoric or focus? I don't know other than to say what I have lived and my communications with those I know.

I do know that there are always things we as individuals or we as groups of people with whatever organizations we have, can do better. I like to think that both try to improve and fix things that need fixed.

I'm going to hold on to my view and hope that church members in whatever country they are in support that country as much as they can, and strive to make a positive difference where they can. I hope people helping people can be a main focus.

I'm sorry your experience was not as positive as mine was. I don't like it when someone or some group tries to pressure me to be something or do something. It has to make sense to me, and on my own timetable.

Great, now I'm rambling. Thanks for your posts. I'll leave it at that.

 

[JazzGal]

Maybe so. I also was not in Utah and was somewhere more diverse. There wasn't a race or ethnicity that was a majority, and the diversity of religions or no religion was much greater than Utah. Living in Utah both as a member of the LDS church or not as a member of it is much different than somewhere else. Honestly I think it's a much different experience outside of the core of where most church member historically have been the majority. Much of what we learn in life is reading between the lines to go along with what is in text. While it still exists, I felt that there was less being fake and less hypocrisy outside of Utah. It could have to do with the pressure to conform to a majority, or not wanting to feel different or outside of something. I'm not sure exactly.

Either way, that was just my understanding from my life experience. Maybe it was location, maybe it was times changing and maybe it was an intentional change of rhetoric or focus? I don't know other than to say what I have lived and my communications with those I know.

I do know that there are always things we as individuals or we as groups of people with whatever organizations we have, can do better. I like to think that both try to improve and fix things that need fixed.

I'm going to hold on to my view and hope that church members in whatever country they are in support that country as much as they can, and strive to make a positive difference where they can. I hope people helping people can be a main focus.

I'm sorry your experience was not as positive as mine was. I don't like it when someone or some group tries to pressure me to be something or do something. It has to make sense to me, and on my own timetable.

Great, now I'm rambling. Thanks for your posts. I'll leave it at that.

I lived in Utah all of my life since I was 4, and I agree that your experience is a lot different than mine based on what others have told me about being in Utah versus elsewhere. While the church was not a great fit for me, I stayed active in it until my late 30s and resigned membership in my early 50s. Most of my family is still all in, so it is a part of my life whether I want it to be or not. The teachings of the 60s and 70s, though while not actively taught anymore, are still handed down from generation to generation to a certain extent. I'm glad there is less of an "us vs. them" mentality anymore, and less American exceptionalism taught. Sadly, we are getting that from politics now perhaps more than religion.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I lived in Utah all of my life since I was 4, and I agree that your experience is a lot different than mine based on what others have told me about being in Utah versus elsewhere. While the church was not a great fit for me, I stayed active in it until my late 30s and resigned membership in my early 50s. Most of my family is still all in, so it is a part of my life whether I want it to be or not. The teachings of the 60s and 70s, though while not actively taught anymore, are still handed down from generation to generation to a certain extent. I'm glad there is less of an "us vs. them" mentality anymore, and less American exceptionalism taught. Sadly, we are getting that from politics now perhaps more than religion.

I'd agree on it being heavy in politics. I've never been a I'm better than you, or we're better than you type of person and I think that's why politics bothers me so much. There are huge divisions and an us against them mentality and an I'm better than you mentality. I don't like it. I don't like it in politics, in religion, or in cultures. There is good and bad in all. We should try to love, understand, listen to, and help everyone on all fronts. I know that's wishful thinking, but I hate the fighting, bickering, and divisiveness in today's world... and in today's US. It sounds like your experience was pretty different than mine, and I wish it wasn't.
Either way, deep down I think we all want to be heard, listened to, and loved no matter what. I hope you get that no matter your situation. Honestly I hope/wish everyone gets this.
Thanks for your posts over the years. You are genuine, and I appreciate that.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Great thoughts here. I wouldn't consider myself "overly-patriotic", but I love my country and consider myself fortunte to live here. Despite what some might suggest, there are a lot of places much worse. Overall, we are certainly less patriotic of a country than we were a generation or two ago. My Dad showed me some old pictures of the 4th of July when he was a kid, basically every house was flying the US flag. It would be interesting if there was a measurement of how "patriotic" a country's citizens were. I've always found that Canadians and the British have quite a lot of patriotic zeal. When I was in Beijing a few years ago, the national flag was flying everywhere, although that might just be due to the large number of government buildings.

One thing I noted from your comment was the idea that the US was founding on principles you believe in. I've come to realize more and more over time that most Americans feel the same way. We believe in life, liberty, and ther pursuit of happiness. We believe in Freedom and equility. Our differences lie in our interpretation of those concepts, and the ideal means to achieve them.

China/Chinese are very nationalistic. They have very strong feelings about how great China is and are very proud of China. They put their flag on everything. Its pretty similar to USA in that regard of national pride and even more so, due to lots of propaganda. Their daily news has a section which is terrible things in other countries followed by all the great things China is doing. It is super cheesy and obvious propaganda but people dont really have other sources in general and eat it up. Even educated smart people here who have VPNs and read other news get caught up with the propaganda pretty easily, its hard to avoid. Plus their is a strong distrust of outside news due to the fact its pretty negative against China in general and often is biased against China. So people will tend to believe what their side is saying. But I think that is changing a lot lately with some of the covid stuff happening here. But no one thinks they can make a difference so its choosing to move away or just live with that. There is no option to have any protest or voice against. The only way things would ever really change is if the economy takes a huge hit and people have significantly worse standard of living. Its hard to be upset when your parents/grandparents and so on generation in China lived in extreme poverty and saw the biggest economic turnaround in human history over a short period of time.

Sorry not all this is related, but obviously on my mind a lot as I am living in China for awhile and planning to move away soonish. But will always be tied to China and visit regularly.

 

[Red]

With as obsessed as you seem to be with fascism, I do not understand how you are completely failing to see it develop right in front of you. And no it isn’t among Trump followers.

Most people know Hitler was a failed artist and he was the leader of the Nazi party but they know almost nothing of how he went from one to the other. Hitler started out as a Communist no different from a zillion other artists who talk up socialism. He was a member of the German SPD party which was Marxist but they were a soft Marxism so Hitler left the SPD to follow Jewish Socialist leader Kurt Eisner to overthrow the Wittelsbach monarch in Bavaria to form the People’s State of Bavaria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_State_of_Bavaria

The People’s State of Bavaria was Marxist but it did not follow the dictates of Stalin’s Soviet Union. A short time later, Kurt Eisner was assassinated and Hiter joined the even harder-line Bavarian Soviet Republic which was a Marxist state that did align with Stalin’s Soviet Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic

That is where the Nationalist-Socialist worker’s party of Germany sprang from. Nazi Germany was a blended economy with centralized state control being run by a leader steeped in socialist economic ideas and Stalinist police-state practices.

This very moment there is a big, powerful nation that evolved from a Marxist state but is now a blended economy with centralized state control being run by a leader steeped in socialist economic ideas and Stalinist police-state practices. They even have concentration camps and are in the midst of a massive military buildup.

If with the obvious example right in front of your face you still think it is America becoming a fascist nation, I’m thinking that paper you wrote back in college didn’t give you the insight you seem to believe it does.

I think you miss the point entirely if you’re depending entirely on your understanding of Hitler’s background, or European fascism in general. As Churchwell said in her essay:

“its claims to speak for “the people” and to restore national greatness mean that each version of fascism must have its own local identity. To believe that a nationalist movement isn’t fascist because it’s native is to miss the point entirely.”

I think not understanding the above led some people early on in Trump’s appearance on the national scene to throw all those silly Hitler and Nazi comparisons out there. We really should expect a unique Americanized specie of a fascistic movement. How could it not be uniquely American in character? I do think we are seeing just that. It concerns me, what can I say. But, not important if you or I don’t see eye to eye.

Maybe you could register to read her article. Costs nothing for one article. She’s not the only scholar to recognize the original version of the KKK was actually the first fascist organization of the modern era. You might find it thought provoking at least. Or not.

Anyway, yeah, I learned a lot studying the intellectual roots of European fascism a lifetime ago, but my learning did not come to a screeching halt in 1972. My concerns are with an Americanized specie of a fascistic movement.

It’s certainly possible I just instinctively recognized Trump as a right wing populist, after all, it’s not like it was a mystery to be unraveled, but I did believe at the time that my studies a lifetime ago helped me understand.

I really do believe that the past informs the present, and therein lies the value of understanding history.

I look for conditions affecting a society, affecting a cultural group, an ethnic group, etc., that would lend itself to the rise of right wing populism. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that, and it helps me understand the present. What are the internal societal conditions conducive to a flourishing right wing populism? I think that’s what one should look for, not direct comparisons. Once you get to the “Trump is our Hitler” stage, you lose everyone.

But what I am trying to understand is a meaningful pursuit to me. I know you don’t agree, but I think you think I’m on a page that I’m not on at all. I’m sure we’ll continue to not see eye to eye, and likely just talk past each other. That’s OK too….

American Fascism: It Has Happened Here | Sarah Churchwell

“When Americans think of dictators they always think of some foreign model,” wrote the anti-fascist journalist Dorothy Thompson in the mid-1930s, but an American dictator would be “one of the boys, and he will stand for everything traditionally American.” And the American people, Thompson added...

www.nybooks.com

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I think you miss the point entirely if you’re depending entirely on your understanding of Hitler’s background, or European fascism in general.

It isn't 'European" but fascism in general that I base my understanding of fascism on. All you are doing by claiming that ours is unique is admitting that we don't fit within the bounds of fascism but you really want to use the word. I am not a fan of concept creep, sometimes called 2+2=5, where terms are stretched to justify an otherwise unsupportable claim.

Fascism is inextricably linked to a set of economic organizational concepts. If Trump's proposals fall within those economic organizational concepts then point them out. I don't think you can. I don't see anything out of Trump economically that was even as fascist as FDR's short-lived NIRA, and even that was nothing compared to China today which is well within the four corners of fascism.

 

[Safetydan]

China/Chinese are very nationalistic. They have very strong feelings about how great China is and are very proud of China. They put their flag on everything. Its pretty similar to USA in that regard of national pride and even more so, due to lots of propaganda. Their daily news has a section which is terrible things in other countries followed by all the great things China is doing. It is super cheesy and obvious propaganda but people dont really have other sources in general and eat it up. Even educated smart people here who have VPNs and read other news get caught up with the propaganda pretty easily, its hard to avoid. Plus their is a strong distrust of outside news due to the fact its pretty negative against China in general and often is biased against China. So people will tend to believe what their side is saying. But I think that is changing a lot lately with some of the covid stuff happening here. But no one thinks they can make a difference so its choosing to move away or just live with that. There is no option to have any protest or voice against. The only way things would ever really change is if the economy takes a huge hit and people have significantly worse standard of living. Its hard to be upset when your parents/grandparents and so on generation in China lived in extreme poverty and saw the biggest economic turnaround in human history over a short period of time.

Sorry not all this is related, but obviously on my mind a lot as I am living in China for awhile and planning to move away soonish. But will always be tied to China and visit regularly.

No, It's totally relevant because, often, it will show that many are uncomfortable with chinese nationalism but find murica's nationalism completely innocuous. I think living abroad was mentioned earlier and Gameface talked about traveling with the navy. Some learn the wrong lessons but many, who live abroad with a semblance of empathy and open-mindedness, will see the US through the lens of the people of the world. The view from outside the imperial core is very different.

 

[One Brow]

It isn't 'European" but fascism in general that I base my understanding of fascism on. All you are doing by claiming that ours is unique is admitting that we don't fit within the bounds of fascism but you really want to use the word. I am not a fan of concept creep, sometimes called 2+2=5, where terms are stretched to justify an otherwise unsupportable claim.

Fascism is inextricably linked to a set of economic organizational concepts. If Trump's proposals fall within those economic organizational concepts then point them out. I don't think you can. I don't see anything out of Trump economically that was even as fascist as FDR's short-lived NIRA, and even that was nothing compared to China today which is well within the four corners of fascism.

You seem to be identifying fascism primarily by its economic components. This is not standard usage.

Definition of FASCISM

a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

The primary components of fascism would be the elevation of the nation (or head of state) over the citizenry and a centralized autocracy. Trump wasn't fully fascist, but he moved the government in that direction in every way except economically.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

The primary components of fascism would be the elevation of the nation (or head of state) over the citizenry and a centralized autocracy.

Your definition is so broad as to be worthless. By your definition, how is Stalin's Soviet Union not considered fascist? Communism, like fascism, is inextricably linked to a set of economic organizational concepts.