Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

[Jingled]

Good, maybe this deal comes off before the deadline after all! I figure Reddish, IQ and Toppin round out the deal. Grimes is off the table and Rose is not going to let us bend em over regardless how many mysterious suitors we pretend to have.

Anybody who thinks we don’t have any skin in this game is insane! We either complete the rebuild or we go on the Mitchell goodbye tour where we try to look good to maintain his value with a buzzsaw schedule and a stacked West.

I wouldn't give up on us getting Grimes just yet...I still think there's a good chance he'll be part of the final deal.

 

[Elizah Huge]

The Grimes love affair is funny to me from both sides. Guarantee this doesn’t happen if he didn’t play well in summer league.

 

[Release the Kraken]

I wouldn't give up on us getting Grimes just yet...I still think there's a good chance he'll be part of the final deal.

Would be nice!

 

[KqWIN]

If he ends up in the deal it’s because the cost (in terms of picks) was mid/low.

As far as his game… I’m not sure where he goes but he is good laterally and is strong like bull. I think he’s not a great run jump athlete but he’s got a big enough frame to toggle between both forward spots. His jumper gets consistent and he’s a borderline AS on the wing. Again the comp is like Harrison Barnes… Barnes had some hops but hardly used it. Barrett has more ball skills… Barnes obviously better shooter now.

He may not get there but he’s worth a gamble assuming the cost is like 1.5 unprotected picks in the deal.if his cost is higher you don’t have to worry cuz he won’t be in the deal.

If the cost is low, I don’t care. I just don’t think it’s close to being that low. If RJ is in the deal, I think it’s way more likely that 3 firsts are missing instead of one. The fans who don’t want to trade him probably think he’s going to be an all star next season. If you’re a counting stats person, that argument is legitimate. There’s just no way the Knicks value him at 1.5 firsts.

IMO, Barnes was much more talented as a young player. For one, he was already proven to be a contributor in a smaller role as a young player. I’m very skeptical of RJ’s ability to do that as both a bad defender and a bad shooter. Barnes also had a lot more game. His face up, mid range game was always there and even if he wasn’t great at it you could see how it could be a thing down the line. A 6’8 guy who can get his shot off at any time….that’s a unique talent. Barrett doesn’t have a unique talent. He looks like a physical freak, but he sucks badly in areas where athleticism is supposed to shine.

Barrett has no mid range game or ability to shoot off the dribble. His offensive game is running at the rim and chucking up floaters, contested layups, and hoping to get fouled. He’s terrible at this btw, I think he was the worst finisher in the league last year. One could say he’s great at getting to the rim because of his high attempts, but his high attempts are also so high because he just tosses up a ton of garbage with no chance at scoring. I don’t think guys improve at the basket the same way they can as a shooter. You can get better, but most of it is natural athleticism and craftiness.

There are a lot of young wings who were very negative players and eventually made it work….but to me those guys were all significantly more talented. He’s not hopeless, I would be willing to be that team who offers him a huge offer sheet next summer. But Knicks people are looking at a guy who finished the year 25/6/4 and I’m seeing him as a guy who needs a lot of work to be a positive player in this league.

If any team offered 1.5 picks for Barrett, I think they would laugh their *** off.

 

[jumpin bean]

Barrett is a STUD

 

[Gameface]

Barrett is a STUD

 

[idiot]

Just for fun -- a 3-teamer with Cavs/Lakers:

I think it works both within the sign and trade in-and-out money rule and keeps the Cavs under the luxury tax. Fanspo's site doesn't accommodate those rules well, so I put Sexton at $13 million as a kind of compromise with the in-an-out $ accounting and to make sure they stayed under the tax. The thing says the trade fails, but it's just because players from the Minny trade aren't yet eligible.

Westbrook and Nunn would be bought out, presumably. (Nunn's inclusion is actually optional, but probably works better for the Lakers' tax bill.) Trade swaps could be added in as well.

Probably not as much as we'd want compared to what the Knicks can give us. And for @Handlogten's Heros: I tried several ways to fit Love into the trade, but I just couldn't make it work in a way I thought would be realistic for all three teams.

 

[stitches]

I don't think Don will ever say to a camera that he wants out or wants to go to the Knicks. He will stay silent and if he wants to force the trade, I think he would prefer that the Knicks give up a little bit more instead of publicly pressuring the Jazz and becoming hated.

The Knicks are going to get **** on by their local/national media until it doesn't get done. For the longest time I believed that would give us the edge in the waiting game. But I have to say, it's also really hard for the Jazz to bluff that they're ok with running it back with Don and no Center. The schedule made it obvious that no one really believes the Jazz are going to have Mitchell on the team next year.

Things don't truly get uncomfortable until camp comes...but with 3 parties experiencing discomfort (NYK, UTA, Mitchell), I'm thinking it's tilted in our favor because Don will put more pressure on the Knicks than he will the Jazz to avoid being the bad guy.

I think even this is a false worry - about camp coming. What's the worst thing that can happen for Utah with uncomfortable or even contentious camp? They have some tension and ugly interractions and team chemistry is bad and ... they lose more games as a result. Oh no! What are we gonna do with all those ping pong balls If the Jazz really want to tank... they can do it with or without Mitchell on the roster. All they need to do is execute a Westbrook trade where they get picks for absorbing Westbrook and give up 2 or 3 of the vets... then trade the remaining winning vets for whatever they can get to other contenders... and it's done - the tank is on. Just imagine a starting line up of Mitchell-NAW-Bolmaro-Vanderbilt-Azubuike with bench of Jared Butler-Xavier Sneed-Simone Fontecchio-Johnny Juzang-Walker Kessler. Now imagine how the Jazz are going to "protect" Mitchell in the course of the season - no back to backs(that's 10 games gone), every small injury that takes a few days to come back from would suddenly require a week or two to get cleared... twisted ankle? Two months. Gone! Teams find the most creative of way to tank when they want to lose games. This team is not winning 30 games... do we even get 25?

 

[stitches]

I keep going back and forth on who is winning this waiting game. Do the Jazz really want to go to camp with Don? Do the Knicks want to go to camp without him? I see the pressure from both sides to get it done. One thing I haven't considered as much is Don. We know he doesn't want to be the bad guy and publicly force his way out....if he and his team were going to force a trade to happen quicker, he and his team would probably be telling the Knicks to just get the damn deal done. If he's in camp with the Jazz it puts him in a very awkward situation where he doesn't want to be here and he also doesn't want to let it known he'd rather be on the Knicks.

My thing with Don wanting to force his way out? What does Don win by asking publicly out? Trade demands have any power ONLY if they actually change the public posture and behavior of the team - i.e. from not listening to offers to listening to offers. For all intents and purposes the Jazz right now are acting as if Donovan has already asked out. They are ACTIVELY listening to trade offers and they are trying to start a bidding war via private and public channels. How would him asking a trade actually change anything? How would it change Jazz' private and public posture? It won't! The Jazz would still be listening to offers and they would still be trying to create the best market for him and get the best offer for him. He wins nothing from publicly asking out. And the Knicks might get another tampering charge on their hands if he actually does.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

My thing with Don wanting to force his way out? What does Don win by asking publicly out? Trade demands have any power ONLY if they actually change the public posture and behavior of the team - i.e. from not listening to offers to listening to offers. For all intents and purposes the Jazz right now are acting as if Donovan has already asked out. They are ACTIVELY listening to trade offers and they are trying to start a bidding war via private and public channels. How would him asking a trade actually change anything? How would it change Jazz' private and public posture? It won't! The Jazz would still be listening to offers and they would still be trying to create the best market for him and get the best offer for him. He wins nothing from publicly asking out. And the Knicks might get another tampering charge on their hands if he actually does.

The fear would be that he names a team/teams and it creates less competition and in the end worse offers. In reality I'm not sure it's made that much of a difference when a player names a team.

As a fan, it doesn't sound like very much fun to have this drag on. But yeah, as a team, it probably doesn't make that much difference.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Jazz Now Have Strong Interest In Acquiring RJ Barrett From Knicks

Jazz Now Have Strong Interest In Acquiring RJ Barrett From Knicks - RealGM Wiretap

basketball.realgm.com

Him 2 unprotected, 3 protect. Done

I think including Barrett in the deal makes sense for both teams. He's a young player that has shown enough he's going to want a lot of money, but for a team trying to compete that could be risky since he hasn't necessarily shown he's worth what they'll need to pay. For a team like the Jazz his extension will be a very low risk, potentially high reward situation. If the Knicks are looking to pair Donovan with another star, and don't think Barrett is it, then including him in the deal to reduce the amount of picks we are asking for makes a lot of sense. From a Jazz perspective I still think it's important to have at least one promising young player you can sell to your fan base. Do the Jazz really want to go in to the season trying to push Fontecchio jerseys at their Fanzz stores?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think including Barrett in the deal makes sense for both teams. He's a young player that has shown enough he's going to want a lot of money, but for a team trying to compete that could be risky since he hasn't necessarily shown he's worth what they'll need to pay. For a team like the Jazz his extension will be a very low risk, potentially high reward situation. If the Knicks are looking to pair Donovan with another star, and don't think Barrett is it, then including him in the deal to reduce the amount of picks we are asking for makes a lot of sense. From a Jazz perspective I still think it's important to have at least one promising young player you can sell to your fan base. Do the Jazz really want to go in to the season trying to push Fontecchio jerseys at their Fanzz stores?

I can also see a scenario where Donovan looks at the roster and is like “imma be fighting with Julius, Jalen, and RJ for the ball?” And is totally cool with NY parting with RJ and keeping Grimes. Say including RJ means we lose 1 unprotected pick, 1 protected pick, and have to sub in IQ for Grimes. That cost is okay. We can get a bunch of protected picks in salary dumps or selling off vets. Eventually they have limited utility if you have a bunch of them.

 

[David Stern]

I’m interested to see why one of the sides is leaking that the Jazz ’strongly’ want RJ - is it so they can claim victory when we get all of their draft picks and young players without RJ?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If the cost is low, I don’t care. I just don’t think it’s close to being that low. If RJ is in the deal, I think it’s way more likely that 3 firsts are missing instead of one. The fans who don’t want to trade him probably think he’s going to be an all star next season. If you’re a counting stats person, that argument is legitimate. There’s just no way the Knicks value him at 1.5 firsts.

IMO, Barnes was much more talented as a young player. For one, he was already proven to be a contributor in a smaller role as a young player. I’m very skeptical of RJ’s ability to do that as both a bad defender and a bad shooter. Barnes also had a lot more game. His face up, mid range game was always there and even if he wasn’t great at it you could see how it could be a thing down the line. A 6’8 guy who can get his shot off at any time….that’s a unique talent. Barrett doesn’t have a unique talent. He looks like a physical freak, but he sucks badly in areas where athleticism is supposed to shine.

I think you are greatly overrating Barnes in his age 21 season versus RJ. RJ showed an ability to be a good player offball his second year. May have been a little fluky but when exactly was Barnes creating and getting a shot whenever he wanted in GS. How effective was he as a role player his age 21 season?

Barrett has no mid range game or ability to shoot off the dribble. His offensive game is running at the rim and chucking up floaters, contested layups, and hoping to get fouled. He’s terrible at this btw, I think he was the worst finisher in the league last year. One could say he’s great at getting to the rim because of his high attempts, but his high attempts are also so high because he just tosses up a ton of garbage with no chance at scoring. I don’t think guys improve at the basket the same way they can as a shooter. You can get better, but most of it is natural athleticism and craftiness.

The midrange is horrible. The finishing is bad in a vacuum. Then you consider the frequency with which he’s getting there… the fact that Robinson shared the flier with him for half his minutes… and Robinson is the player in the nba that is most anchored to the rim in the league. He played like 70% of his minutes with Randle… who is not a guy who helps his teammates or spaces the floor.

Not sure where you get the idea that guys can’t improve at finishing at the rim but they can/have in the past. Jaylen Brown did… also an iffy shooter who turned into a good shooter. Has a more limited handle than Barrett and less creation ability. Significantly better from midrange.

There are a lot of young wings who were very negative players and eventually made it work….but to me those guys were all significantly more talented. He’s not hopeless, I would be willing to be that team who offers him a huge offer sheet next summer. But Knicks people are looking at a guy who finished the year 25/6/4 and I’m seeing him as a guy who needs a lot of work to be a positive player in this league.

If any team offered 1.5 picks for Barrett, I think they would laugh their *** off.

The point of 1.5 Unprotected picks being his value is … we want 4 unprotected Knicks picks in the deal… they want to do 2 to allow maximum flexibility for their next deal… maybe Danny settles for 3 but maybe RJ is the only way to make up that delta. They might do better selling RJ to a third team but what would they get? I’m asking honestly and not in a rhetorical fashion.

So he represents the Knicks saving two unprotected picks or he becomes the bargaining chip that allows Knicks to sell their fans (yeah we gave up 4 but only other way to do it was trade RJ… and y’all freaked out about that).

So it’s kind of like this… would you rather have RJ or 1 unprotected pick, 1 protected pick, and Grimes. I’d rather have the latter and the Knicks might too but it’s a flexible way to work a deal that might fit the needs of both teams. If RJ was a consistent 3 point shooter… a more consistent defender (he’s been solid mostly), then he’d be completely off the table. If he figures those things out and gets a shade better at the rim he’s a super valuable two way wing who is a good second or third scorer on a contender… the toughest guy to get in the league is that player type… it’s worth the gamble.

 

[jaydhn]

Y’all are going soft. 3 unprotected picks is the price just to get on the call.

Dejounte Murray went for 4 1sts, 2 unprotected, 1 protected to 16 and 1 pick swap. I wonder what you can get from other teams for the offer Ainge wants.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Not sure if this was specifically mentioned, but Ian Begley is reporting that the Jazz and Cavs have been talking. I think they might be better and fairer partners than the Knicks.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Not sure if this was specifically mentioned, but Ian Begley is reporting that the Jazz and Cavs have been talking. I think they might be better and fairer partners than the Knicks.

Also… wait for it… this is leverage.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Not sure if this was specifically mentioned, but Ian Begley is reporting that the Jazz and Cavs have been talking. I think they might be better and fairer partners than the Knicks.

Also… wait for it… this is leverage.

It has… they can put together a decent package. Basically a swap in 2023… 25/27/29 1sts… sexton and Okoro. The shine is off Okoro but still worth a flier.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Not sure if this was specifically mentioned, but Ian Begley is reporting that the Jazz and Cavs have been talking. I think they might be better and fairer partners than the Knicks.

They can definitely beat the offer the Knicks are reported to have most recently offered. I think the Mobley is really good though, and probably sets them up to be a winning franchise for the foreseeable future.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

They can definitely beat the offer the Knicks are reported to have most recently offered. I think the Mobley is really good though, and probably sets them up to be a winning franchise for the foreseeable future.

Side note... Cleveland would be hilarious... they out here watching everyone load up on guys that are 6'8" and are like "eff no... you either 6' or 7' or GTFO!"