Jazz sign Darius Bazley to a 3 year NG

[Handlogten's Heros]

He’s going to lose 15 lbs this summer and gain 15 lbs of muscle. He’s angling for that 4 years and $80M.

He would have zero strength gains though because weight equals strength regardless of whether it’s muscle or fat.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

You are saying he shouldn’t try… since his game is predicated on being fat. Don’t make dumbass arguments if you don’t want obvious responses lol.

No idea how that's what you took away

 

[KqWIN]

Say he loses 15-20 lbs of mostly fat in the offseason… the strength loss is going to be negligible for this sport. This is not an offensive lineman or sumo wrestling situation. Will him moving better make a big difference? No idea. Not saying he needs to or can be Wemby. It might improve what he is good at… Randle, Zion, etc are all guys that perform better when they get lighter and are still able to bully dudes. Not sure if Kevin Love helped his career or helped it but he’s about as close as you could get to a “maybe he got too skinny”. We even saw what having a few extra pounds did to favs… who wasn’t fat.

I doubt there is one team or staff in the league that doesn’t have dropping a few pounds on the top of his to do list if he came in and was part of their program.

This is basketball, there is going to be some offensive lineman/sumo like situation. His entire game is predicated on moving people and people not being able to move him. Even if he loses 15-20 lbs of pure fat, he still will likely be unable to have the create the same force and that’s also 15-20 lbs the opposing players don’t have to move. Is it negligible? Hard to tell. You could say that whatever gains he gets from losing that weight is also negligible. But there is a tradeoff.

Like I said, I would say he is probably in a better spot if he loses some weight….but there are some situations where being heavier/stronger is beneficial. His entire game is about those moments. His optimal weight is probably lower than what it is but he’s going to need to be one of the bigger/heavier guys in the league if he’s going to make it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

This is basketball, there is going to be some offensive lineman/sumo like situation. His entire game is predicated on moving people and people not being able to move him. Even if he loses 15-20 lbs of pure fat, he still will likely be unable to have the create the same force and that’s also 15-20 lbs the opposing players don’t have to move. Is it negligible? Hard to tell. You could say that whatever gains he gets from losing that weight is also negligible. But there is a tradeoff.

Like I said, I would say he is probably in a better spot if he loses some weight….but there are some situations where being heavier/stronger is beneficial. His entire game is about those moments. His optimal weight is probably lower than what it is but he’s going to need to be one of the bigger/heavier guys in the league if he’s going to make it.

Its not an offensive lineman situation. Those guys aren't asked to run miles during their sport. The mobility is in short burst. I am also not asking him to lose the 80 lbs like a retired lineman either.

Yes... if he loses 15-20 lbs of bad weight he can still move people. He's not sumo wrestling dudes. He moves them with skill and force. His super power might even be enhanced as he may have more energy to wrestle if he isn't using that energy to drag an extra 15-20 lbs of bad weight up and down the floor. If he does it right I doubt his functional basketball strength declines. Its not a sport where you can straight throw guys to the ground. If he deployed his full force like sumo or football athletes it would result in a foul in basketball most of the time.

I just think the list of guys that lost 20 lbs intentionally and ended up worse basketball players would be real short. There are many that cut that weight and improved because of it. I'll go ahead and play the percentages.

 

[infection]

He would have zero strength gains though because weight equals strength regardless of whether it’s muscle or fat.

 

[Fosto]

This isn’t true. If you lose 20lbs of fat while maintaining your muscle mass you won’t lose strength. If in that cut he lost substantial muscle that’s another story. That’s why I said bad weight.

You're wrong. Have you ever seen the strongest men competitions? It's well known that gaining weight (which means fat, since muscle take ages to build) while body building allows u to lift more. It's why people have a bulking and cutting phases.

 

[KqWIN]

Its not an offensive lineman situation. Those guys aren't asked to run miles during their sport. The mobility is in short burst. I am also not asking him to lose the 80 lbs like a retired lineman either.

Yes... if he loses 15-20 lbs of bad weight he can still move people. He's not sumo wrestling dudes. He moves them with skill and force. His super power might even be enhanced as he may have more energy to wrestle if he isn't using that energy to drag an extra 15-20 lbs of bad weight up and down the floor. If he does it right I doubt his functional basketball strength declines. Its not a sport where you can straight throw guys to the ground. If he deployed his full force like sumo or football athletes it would result in a foul in basketball most of the time.

I just think the list of guys that lost 20 lbs intentionally and ended up worse basketball players would be real short. There are many that cut that weight and improved because of it. I'll go ahead and play the percentages.

To each their own….but when I watch him play basketball, it is obvious how that weight helps him. Almost all of his offense is predicated on him playing bully ball and moving people. You can say that’s not similar to whatever sport, I’m saying his size advantage is the only reason he’s able to do that. When he’s sealing a guy in the post or backing someone down, his weight+strength is almost all that matters.

Does he have too much size to the point of diminishing returns? Maybe. Again, I’ve said losing weight is probably beneficial several times but there’s no doubt that his size is the advantage he utilizes the most. What is actual optimal? Who knows, I’d bet on it being a lower weight than he is now but I am certain he can only make it if he is bigger/heavier than his opponents. There are zero NBA players in the NBA with his play style that can perform without having a big size advantage. The majority of NBA players need to gain weight during their careers and the majority of NBA players do not rely on their weight like Lofton.

I’d also say losing a 15-20 lbs (and benefitting from those advantages) probably won’t change his outlook much. Even if that’s an overall positive tradeoff I don’t think losing weight isn’t the difference between him making it and not imo. Could it help? Yes, absolutely. But I think it will mostly come down to being utilized in the right situation and of course his overall skill development as a player.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You're wrong. Have you ever seen the strongest men competitions? It's well known that gaining weight (which means fat, since muscle take ages to build) while body building allows u to lift more. It's why people have a bulking and cutting phases.

I've literally gone through bulking and cutting phases and gained strength in both in the weight room. If someone has 200 lbs of muscle mass and 50 lbs of fat... and they cut to 30 lbs of fat while maintaining the 200 lbs of muscle mass... they will essentially have the same strength. The leverage might change... which is why strongest men and offensive lineman go for bulk/strength first second and third. But this is basketball. If Kenny goes as hard as he can shoving or laying into guys in the post it will be a foul.

His functional strength might have minimal impact. Zion, Chuck, those thicc bois that are strong and their games are helped with their strength... lost weight and were more successful even if their pb's aren't completely maxed out.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

To each their own….but when I watch him play basketball, it is obvious how that weight helps him. Almost all of his offense is predicated on him playing bully ball and moving people. You can say that’s not similar to whatever sport, I’m saying his size advantage is the only reason he’s able to do that. When he’s sealing a guy in the post or backing someone down, his weight+strength is almost all that matters.

Does he have too much size to the point of diminishing returns? Maybe. Again, I’ve said losing weight is probably beneficial several times but there’s no doubt that his size is the advantage he utilizes the most. What is actual optimal? Who knows, I’d bet on it being a lower weight than he is now but I am certain he can only make it if he is bigger/heavier than his opponents. There are zero NBA players in the NBA with his play style that can perform without having a big size advantage.

I’d also say losing a 15-20 lbs (and benefitting from those advantages) probably won’t change his outlook much. Even if that’s an overall positive tradeoff I don’t think losing weight isn’t the difference between him making it and not imo. Could it help? Yes, absolutely. But I think it will mostly come down to being utilized in the right situation and of course his overall skill development as a player.

If he was banging threes it might mean more to his game than the weight thing. I'm kind of done talking about this because roughly we are in the same spot. I'll just ask the question... are there any examples of dudes losing the fluff and being worse because of it?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

This is basketball, there is going to be some offensive lineman/sumo like situation. His entire game is predicated on moving people and people not being able to move him. Even if he loses 15-20 lbs of pure fat, he still will likely be unable to have the create the same force and that’s also 15-20 lbs the opposing players don’t have to move. Is it negligible? Hard to tell. You could say that whatever gains he gets from losing that weight is also negligible. But there is a tradeoff.

Like I said, I would say he is probably in a better spot if he loses some weight….but there are some situations where being heavier/stronger is beneficial. His entire game is about those moments. His optimal weight is probably lower than what it is but he’s going to need to be one of the bigger/heavier guys in the league if he’s going to make it.

Highest level sports are self-selecting for body types, but the NBA has more built in variability where teams are willing to try things to see if it works.

HH is just confused because he thinks everyone is going to benefit from the same thing because that's largely what you see in the NBA.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I've literally gone through bulking and cutting phases and gained strength in both in the weight room. If someone has 200 lbs of muscle mass and 50 lbs of fat... and they cut to 30 lbs of fat while maintaining the 200 lbs of muscle mass... they will essentially have the same strength. The leverage might change... which is why strongest men and offensive lineman go for bulk/strength first second and third. But this is basketball. If Kenny goes as hard as he can shoving or laying into guys in the post it will be a foul.

His functional strength might have minimal impact. Zion, Chuck, those thicc bois that are strong and their games are helped with their strength... lost weight and were more successful even if their pb's aren't completely maxed out.

Zion and Chuck were also above the rim players....

 

[KqWIN]

If he was banging threes it might mean more to his game than the weight thing. I'm kind of done talking about this because roughly we are in the same spot. I'll just ask the question... are there any examples of dudes losing the fluff and being worse because of it?

Once again, I think Lofton is probably better off with less weight…I’m not arguing against him losing weight and the historical record is one of those reasons. Most players in the NBA need to gain weight and I can’t think of anyone who utilizes their weight more than Lofton. Is he optimal? Probably not, but I do believe we are stressing about his weight too much. Overall I’d say his size is positive for him (even if not perfect) because without being on the larger he has no game.

I just don’t think he’s “X amount of weight” from being good. Realistically, he’s going to be good and bad at the same things if/when he loses X amount of fat unless he improves his actual skill level. We hyper fixate on optimizing his body type because he’s unique, I get it, but there are more important things to his development. To your point in the first sentence, it’s going to mean a lot more if he can become a reliable shooter than if he’s 15-20 lbs lighter.