The Non-Jazz NBA Thread in the Jazz Section

[HermanG]

It’s perfectly logical. Tank right, draft smart, and don’t spend a decade tanking. I’m not sure how old you are, but you might want to read a little bit about how this franchise has remained competitive for the majority of the last 40 years.

Its you who needs to do the reading lol. In your self-defined 40 year window TH is actually only the 5th top 10 pick, and this year we get the 6th.

This is actually only the 2nd time in those 40 years we are geting 2 top 10 picks in a row. Last such multi year tank resulted in Hayward and Kanter....

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Yes if only anyone could have seen that a fool's gold coach and bad roster development was what held the jazz back. Not to mention a "star" guard who all but admitted he refused to play defense.



If only....

The Jazz had near perfect roster development. They got screwed by injuries and failing under pressure. I really don't think it's all that necessary to go past that. You can nitpick the moves in the margins being our ultimate failure, but the broad strokes were genius and worked.

 

[LogGrad98]

The Jazz had near perfect roster development. They got screwed by injuries and failing under pressure. I really don't think it's all that necessary to go past that. You can nitpick the moves in the margins being our ultimate failure, but the broad strokes were genius and worked.

Nope. Conley was never a championship move and didn't address our obviously most glaring deficit, perimeter defense, which ended up being our Downfall in every playoffs we were in. That was a mistake.

 

[NAOS_pt2]

The Jazz had near perfect roster development. They got screwed by injuries and failing under pressure. I really don't think it's all that necessary to go past that. You can nitpick the moves in the margins being our ultimate failure, but the broad strokes were genius and worked.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but nearly perfected, how?

It’s pretty obvious that they knew what they had in Gobert and went for a full shift of assets that leaned hard into offensive skill sets. I also think it’s fair to say that they pushed all-in at the soonest moment of that cycle of roster development. I also think it’s fair to say that the health/perfection of roster development can be measured by looking at the relationship between the GM and the coach (and we know how that went). I also think it’s fair to say that the final chapter of roster development was extremely sloppy (Favors’s last contract, Doke, etc).

By the end of the Gobert-Mitchell cycle, our deficiencies were obvious and known league-wide. And we either had no assets to do anything meaningful to address them OR a GM-coach pairing that could address things.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but nearly perfected, how?

It’s pretty obvious that they knew what they had in Gobert and went for a full shift of assets that leaned hard into offensive skill sets. I also think it’s fair to say that they pushed all-in at the soonest moment of that cycle of roster development. I also think it’s fair to say that the health/perfection of roster development can be measured by looking at the relationship between the GM and the coach (and we know how that went). I also think it’s fair to say that the final chapter of roster development was extremely sloppy (Favors’s last contract, Doke, etc).

By the end of the Gobert-Mitchell cycle, our deficiencies were obvious and known league-wide. And we either had no assets to do anything meaningful to address them OR a GM-coach pairing that could address things.

Mistakes were made and I've thought about how bad they were and where they could have been different. I blame DL but also wish Quin would have put some of those guys we thought would be "the guys" out there enough to show they sucked or weren't working. In addition to the Favs, Davis, Bradley, Doke super fail we also didn't churn the end of the roster enough. We rode with Morgan, Oni, Brantley for a while without getting much or seeing what they looked like in extended run.

I remember DL saying something the year they traded (sold) the second round pick in the 30s that they didn't see anyone they liked in the draft at that point. Gave the line that the funds would be reinvested in the program... yada yada. Jokic and a few other nba players were selected after that pick. For whatever reason we just did not give enough thought/care to the backend of the roster or just have enough success there to provide cheap role players we needed to make budget. (and yes I know Walt Perrin would bring in 7,000 players for workouts during that time... that's commendable but you need to make some actual moves on top of that).

Ultimately the Don Rudy relationship became untenable imo. I think there is blame for both guys in that but I do think Rudy may have tried harder to repair that issue but who knows I think it was time for everyone. I don't look back in anger at anyone really. I don't quite understand those that look back and think we did the wrong thing in tearing that down either. Whether it works or not I think it was the right call.

 

[sip]

I hated the Conley trade from the get go but that is forgivable compared to the 3 straight MLE signing screw ups and the Dok pick. Those 4 moves were inexcusable and completely slammed the window on competing for a title. I will never forgive DL for those moves and his level of incompetence over the last few years.

 

[NAOS_pt2]

Mistakes were made and I've thought about how bad they were and where they could have been different. I blame DL but also wish Quin would have put some of those guys we thought would be "the guys" out there enough to show they sucked or weren't working. In addition to the Favs, Davis, Bradley, Doke super fail we also didn't churn the end of the roster enough. We rode with Morgan, Oni, Brantley for a while without getting much or seeing what they looked like in extended run.

I remember DL saying something the year they traded (sold) the second round pick in the 30s that they didn't see anyone they liked in the draft at that point. Gave the line that the funds would be reinvested in the program... yada yada. Jokic and a few other nba players were selected after that pick. For whatever reason we just did not give enough thought/care to the backend of the roster or just have enough success there to provide cheap role players we needed to make budget. (and yes I know Walt Perrin would bring in 7,000 players for workouts during that time... that's commendable but you need to make some actual moves on top of that).

Ultimately the Don Rudy relationship became untenable imo. I think there is blame for both guys in that but I do think Rudy may have tried harder to repair that issue but who knows I think it was time for everyone. I don't look back in anger at anyone really. I don't quite understand those that look back and think we did the wrong thing in tearing that down either. Whether it works or not I think it was the right call.

It was definitely time to blow it up. I have heaps of blame to spread around, but the bulk of it goes to DL and Quin, who were 3/4ths or further along into a cycle of team-building that many people dream to be a part of... and then caved to impatient and destructive impulses. How many bites at the apple do they expect to get?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It was definitely time to blow it up. I have heaps of blame to spread around, but the bulk of it goes to DL and Quin, who were 3/4ths or further along into a cycle of team-building that many people dream to be a part of... and then caved to impatient and destructive impulses. How many bites at the apple do they expect to get?

They were always just a step or two behind with decision making etc. Also had some sloppy mistake/miscalculations.

 

[NAOS_pt2]

I hated the Conley trade from the get go but that is forgivable compared to the 3 straight MLE signing screw ups and the Dok pick. Those 4 moves were inexcusable and completely slammed the window on competing for a title. I will never forgive DL for those moves and his level of incompetence over the last few years.

I'm with you on DL. His track record is easier to lay bare and judge harshly than Quin's. But I suspect that Quin did an equal number of hard-to-forgive things that we'll never hear about. The obvious one, though, is just how predictable and monotonous his schemes became. It sounds like the bulk of his dirty work was behind the scenes.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Its you who needs to do the reading lol. In your self-defined 40 year window TH is actually only the 5th top 10 pick, and this year we get the 6th.

This is actually only the 2nd time in those 40 years we are geting 2 top 10 picks in a row. Last such multi year tank resulted in Hayward and Kanter....

What’s TH?

I’ve consistently stated that our best option is to build through the draft, not trade or sign for some mythical superstar that’ll win championships. Whether that comes from top picks or not, the point I was making was that the Jazz need to build through the draft and score big time soon or else they’re going face a diminishing fan base.

 

[framer]

Part of the problem is that we cannot possibly use all of the picks we have coming. Some of them will HAVE to be traded. It is probably better to get ahead of that than wait for the last moment when our trade partners will jam is up.

 

[JimLes]

Nope. Conley was never a championship move and didn't address our obviously most glaring deficit, perimeter defense, which ended up being our Downfall in every playoffs we were in. That was a mistake.

This. The Jazz simply went from one extreme to another. The Houston series laid bare the lack shooting and scoring in general on the team and the front office overreacted and then built a team that was all shooting and no defense. Guys like Thabo, Ekpe, Crowder, Favors, and even Allen and Rubio were replaced by three shooters who play no D and a bunch of G-Leaguers. The pendulum simply swung hard the other way. I get that some of the guys leaving were cooked, but that's kind of the point. They didn't need to be replaced by one star who could shoot, they needed to be replaced by similar journeymen who could do everything else but shoot.

Signing Bojan and trading for Clarkson should've been it as far as shooting, and as multiple people have mentioned, the Conley trade should have never happened. Joe Ingles should've been made the starting PG and the Jazz should've used those assets not to get one star level player, but several solid role players. And Crowder probably should've been kept. His offensive ineptitude would be made irrelevant by Bogey.