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2024-2025 Tank Race

Ferguson_Mellochill said:
Jazz have their own 2RP pick this year, I think. Hence, we could have the following picks: Top 6, ~17, ~28, ~32. Not sure if we'd be able to package our three later picks to move up to the late lottery. I'd be surprised if the Jazz want 4 rookies next year.
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I somehow missed this when you posted it but Minny owns our 2RP this year. Went there as part of that Conley deal...
 
HermanG said:
I somehow missed this when you posted it but Minny owns our 2RP this year. Went there as part of that Conley deal...
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The greatest mistake in the Jazz’s fumbling the ball at the 1 yard line in ‘22-‘23 is not the Conley trade that DID happen (I probably make that move in the situation that existed at the time), it was not sending Bojan, Vanderbilt, Beasley, and Beverly (+ maybe Clarkson) before the season to the Lakers for Russ (+ maybe THT) and a pick. I seem to recall @Tony Jones reporting that the Jazz walked on that framework.

But the Conley trade was pretty unsavory. Especially since that pick (Hendricks) is looking like booty right now and they might’ve done just as well if not better if they didn’t cut their own legs off just to get the 9th pick (the lesson here being that if you’re gonna tank, TANK; don’t get cute about it).
 
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NUMBERICA said:
The greatest mistake in the Jazz’s fumbling the ball at the 1 yard line in ‘22-‘23 is not the Conley trade that DID happen (I probably make that move in the situation that existed at the time), it was not sending Bojan, Vanderbilt, Beasley, Beverly, and (+ maybe Clarkson) before the season to the Lakers for Russ (+ maybe THT) and a pick. I seem to recall @Tony Jones reporting that the Jazz walked on that framework.

But the Conley trade was pretty unsavory. Especially since that pick (Hendricks) is looking like booty right now and they might’ve done just as well if not better if they didn’t cut their own legs off just to get the 9th pick (the lesson here being that if you’re gonna tank, TANK; don’t get cute about it).
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There was a lot that went into that season... once we started hot the options were limited. Hot start and hosting the AS game meant pulling the plug was kind of hard.

The mistake was not doing the math many of us did here that said "this is a 35 win team right now" and prioritizing getting more value out of vets than extracting the value from your own pick. At the end of the day tho... we are fine I think and maybe we still get lucky this year or next.

I agree with your post obvi... just adding 2 cents.
 
I've become somewhat forgiving of the "half tank" because pretty much every "tanking" team is making the same "mistake". Truth is, it's probably less of a mistake than it is reality. You can't just trade guys whenever you want even if they're good, valuable players. The idea of snapping your fingers and turning players into assets is a falsehood. If it was so easy, we'd see teams like POR and BKN already gutting their roster. Like you're really going to tell me BKN doesn't know they should tank or want to? Of course they do. BKN isn't trying to get cute with things, it's just the reality of their situation. I think it was poor work by DA to take two whole seasons to get here (and that was likely a result of him being too much of a stickler), but it doesn't happen as easily as people make it out to be. You could make the argument that the Jazz would have been better off simply giving everyone away for free, but that's not going to happen in a real world situation.

When you're in a position with a bunch of vets leftover from a previous version of the team, the expectation should not be that you can turn them into picks quickly and tank perfectly. The expectation should be that you'd be lucky to get anything for them immediately and more realistically you will have to wait and get very little to nothing. It's a mistake to think that these trades can happen at any time and also a mistake to think that you're going to get anything good. I remember when we were talking about 2 unprotected first round picks in the Lakers deal. We didn't even get half of that lol. We have this idea that tanking is so simplistic and effective, but real life doesn't work like it does in a video game.

IMO you can't be both unhappy with the return on our vets through trade and unhappy with the lack of tanking. This magical world were we get good value for them and get to tank does not exist. Complete fantasy.
 
KqWIN said:
I've become somewhat forgiving of the "half tank" because pretty much every "tanking" team is making the same "mistake". Truth is, it's probably less of a mistake than it is reality. You can't just trade guys whenever you want even if they're good, valuable players. The idea of snapping your fingers and turning players into assets is a falsehood. If it was so easy, we'd see teams like POR and BKN already gutting their roster. Like you're really going to tell me BKN doesn't know they should tank or want to? Of course they do. BKN isn't trying to get cute with things, it's just the reality of their situation. I think it was poor work by DA to take two whole seasons to get here (and that was likely a result of him being too much of a stickler), but it doesn't happen as easily as people make it out to be. You could make the argument that the Jazz would have been better off simply giving everyone away for free, but that's not going to happen in a real world situation.

When you're in a position with a bunch of vets leftover from a previous version of the team, the expectation should not be that you can turn them into picks quickly and tank perfectly. The expectation should be that you'd be lucky to get anything for them immediately and more realistically you will have to wait and get very little to nothing. It's a mistake to think that these trades can happen at any time and also a mistake to think that you're going to get anything good. I remember when we were talking about 2 unprotected first round picks in the Lakers deal. We didn't even get half of that lol. We have this idea that tanking is so simplistic and effective, but real life doesn't work like it does in a video game.

IMO you can't be both unhappy with the return on our vets through trade and unhappy with the lack of tanking. This magical world were we get good value for them and get to tank does not exist. Complete fantasy.
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I think there is a lot of truth to this... but I also think we had an offer that was very close to what we ended up taking. We had plenty of time in the transaction window to make the move we wanted to. They were greedy and misdiagnosed what they had leftover from a standpoint of winning games. Some of that was stuff that wouldn't have been predicted some was pretty predictable.

Some other teams that need to move off vets likely didn't have an offer for some of them like Brooklyn with Shroeder. Though if they wanted to they could move DFS and Cam Johnson for 50 cents on the dollar this season.

Since the Rudy/Don trades I'm fairly understanding of some of the mistakes they made. Some made no sense but they weren't end of the world type of stuff (THT Collins). I like what they are doing with where they are for the most part. We just need some help from lady luck one way or another. The ultimate ceiling of this rebuild likely is determined by how lucky we get over the next 2 years. I think they are maximizing (or close to it) their chances at getting lucky and being able to take advantage of that luck. All you can ask for really.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I think there is a lot of truth to this... but I also think we had an offer that was very close to what we ended up taking. We had plenty of time in the transaction window to make the move we wanted to. They were greedy and misdiagnosed what they had leftover from a standpoint of winning games. Some of that was stuff that wouldn't have been predicted some was pretty predictable.

Some other teams that need to move off vets likely didn't have an offer for some of them like Brooklyn with Shroeder. Though if they wanted to they could move DFS and Cam Johnson for 50 cents on the dollar this season.

Since the Rudy/Don trades I'm fairly understanding of some of the mistakes they made. Some made no sense but they weren't end of the world type of stuff (THT Collins). I like what they are doing with where they are for the most part. We just need some help from lady luck one way or another. The ultimate ceiling of this rebuild likely is determined by how lucky we get over the next 2 years. I think they are maximizing (or close to it) their chances at getting lucky and being able to take advantage of that luck. All you can ask for really.
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There may have been an offer, I know there was reporting, but that 2 unprotected pick package was probably complete fantasy. And if there was any offer before the season we probably should have taken it because those 50 cents on the dollar trades are hard to find in the first place. I don't doubt that DA's greed has hurt us in one way or another because no matter how difficult it is, you can't take two whole years to do this. I can believe that there was a Bogey->LAL deal and Conley->LAC deal(s) on the table because it made sense+ reporting, but the takeaway from that is that DA should have jumped on those deals and found a way to make it happen even if the compensation wasn't much.

I just wanted to put it out there because what happened to us and what's happening to BKN, POR ect.....that's closer to truth than finding good offer for vets. I think the reality is that teams either have no offers for these guys at all or they have offers for pennies and they simply won't accept those kinds of deals in the real world. We may have been extra slow to get here, but the pivot tank isn't as seamless as it may be in NBA 2K. It was bad news for us back then, but I consider it good news for us now because there are a handful of teams that might want to tank but will find it more difficult to do so/it will take longer to get there than expected. These teams aren't completely stupid, and I don't think we were either two years ago. It just doesn't happen that easy. We'll see some trades, but I think we'll see more sore backs that take weeks to heal.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
Holy Cow. That sucks.

Not that we need another pick this year, but that's an actual valuable asset we gave away.
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Well then you're not gonna like the fact that our 2026 2RP went there too on that same trade, and could also be top 35.

They used that pick to get Leonard Miller at 33 (also added their own 2028 2RP in that package) so now Spurs own it.
 
NUMBERICA said:
The greatest mistake in the Jazz’s fumbling the ball at the 1 yard line in ‘22-‘23 is not the Conley trade that DID happen (I probably make that move in the situation that existed at the time), it was not sending Bojan, Vanderbilt, Beasley, Beverly, and (+ maybe Clarkson) before the season to the Lakers for Russ (+ maybe THT) and a pick. I seem to recall @Tony Jones reporting that the Jazz walked on that framework.

But the Conley trade was pretty unsavory. Especially since that pick (Hendricks) is looking like booty right now and they might’ve done just as well if not better if they didn’t cut their own legs off just to get the 9th pick (the lesson here being that if you’re gonna tank, TANK; don’t get cute about it).
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Non-trades are harder to assess because we dont know if it was us or the other side who opted out.

Only problem in that Conley trade was that DA allowed Connely to squeeze NAW and those picks from us. We relieved Lakers of their biggest problem and solved some issues for Minny, so throwing in those knick knacks from our side didnt feel right.

We may have had no other partners to take Conley, but both Minny and Lakers were supposed to be the more desperate than us to make the deal happen.
 
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