Clayton or Collier?

[TheGoldStandard]

Oh you think I was making an argument that I was never making.
I was simply saying that passing the ball to teammates could help teammates get more touches.
Statistically Collier doesn't dominate the ball (guys with more usage than him: key, sexton, Clarkson, svi, Brice, Lauri, Collins. Flip is about the exact same) and he doesn't take many shots (guys who shoot more than him: key, sexton, flip, Lauri, Brice, juzang, Collins, Clarkson, svi) and he gets lots of assists (guys with more assists than Collier: no one. Guys with higher assist % than collier: no one)

Look, you said yourself recently that you dropped Collier down in your rankings due to summer league. summer league is garbage basketball.

It's ok to hate on Collier but to take that hate and extrapolate it into believing that Collier isn't both a willing and good passer just ain't it.

I'm not a Collier fan but he gets dudes the ball in good scoring positions and imo that can be valuable to developing dudes.

I like Collier, but until he can shoot he will be a liability, and it will neuter his ability to use his quickness to drive. He is not elite enough in other areas to not be able to shoot. And his lack of shooting improvement is concerning. That should have been a main focus this summer. Flip's FTs look better as does his shot. You can see the work he put in translating.

I do think AAU in much of the country does a huge disservice by not teaching kids how to shoot or play good team ball. I have moved on from college coaching other than some sessions with local guys (shooting coach), but the lack of fundamentals we saw on a consistent basis is mind numbing.

WCJ's shot is so smooth of picks and in flow. I saw enough flashes in limited SL play that I think he will be a starting PG in this league. Especially if he can tighten his defense and handle. I think he was a great pickup for the Jazz.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Im simply saying that passing the ball to teammates could help teammates get more touches. And that he is a good and willing passer.

Statistically Collier doesn't dominate the ball (guys with more usage than him: key, sexton, Clarkson, svi, Brice, Lauri, Collins. Flip is about the exact same) and he doesn't take many shots (guys who shoot more than him: key, sexton, flip, Lauri, Brice, juzang, Collins, Clarkson, svi) and he gets lots of assists (guys with more assists than Collier: no one. Guys with higher assist % than collier: no one)

Look, you said yourself recently that you dropped Collier down in your rankings due to summer league. summer league is garbage basketball.

It's ok to hate on Collier but to take that hate and extrapolate it into believing that Collier isn't both a willing and good passer just ain't it.

I'm not a Collier fan but he gets dudes the ball in good scoring positions and imo that can be valuable to developing dudes.

If you want me to argue with you that his lack of shooting doesn't/won't hurt the offense then sorry bro, I won't do it. I absolutely do think his lack of shooting is a really big deal and why I don't think he will ever amount to anything in the NBA.

There is no hate. What in the **** are you talking about? I dont hate anyone on the Jazz. But Im going to call it as I see it and right now I dont see Collier on an upward trajectory and the Jazz traded up to pick someone at his position. Im guessing watching Collier brick a ton of shots in the off-season probably fueled that decision to some degree.

You cant just be a passer in the NBA if you cant be efficient or defend at a high level. Collier showed neither of those things. There's a ocean of difference between having to pass the ball to be effective and be a good player who is a willing passer. The former is Collier and the latter is Clayton.

 

[bigmike]

There is no hate. What in the **** are you talking about? I dont hate anyone on the Jazz. But Im going to call it as I see it and right now I dont see Collier on an upward trajectory and the Jazz traded up to pick someone at his position.

You cant just be a passer in the NBA if you cant be efficient or defend at a high level. Collier showed neither of those things. There's a ocean of difference between having to pass the ball to be effective and be a good player who is a willing passer. The former is Collier and the latter is Clayton.

This, to me, is the main signal. Given the state of the roster, I don't think they do that if AA is enamored (or even impressed) with Collier.

He's getting his guys and his guys are going to get every chance to play. Feels pretty simple.

 

[Basketball Novice]

I don't know how usage stats are calculated but it does feel as if Collier dominates the ball when he is out there. Collier has his moments but there are so many sketchy passes, bad drives into traffic, and he is now trying to draw fouls by throwing up garbage at the rim. In the summer league game against the Spurs his end of half play was trying to draw a 3 point foul by throwing up garbage and his end of game play was a heavily contested deep midrange jumper. I can respect that he might be trying stuff but that stuff looks bad right now. He is just too comfortable making insanely tight passes and driving without a plan. Guy also is missing a ton of free throws. I don't know, the offense feels bad when he is in there, maybe disjointed is the right word for it.

Maybe it fixes itself when he is playing in the regular season and dials it back a bit.

 

[fishonjazz]

There is no hate. What in the **** are you talking about? I dont hate anyone on the Jazz. But Im going to call it as I see it and right now I dont see Collier on an upward trajectory and the Jazz traded up to pick someone at his position. Im guessing watching Collier brick a ton of shots in the off-season probably fueled that decision to some degree.

You cant just be a passer in the NBA if you cant be efficient or defend at a high level. Collier showed neither of those things. There's a ocean of difference between having to pass the ball to be effective and be a good player who is a willing passer. The former is Collier and the latter is Clayton.

Again, you are arguing with someone who doesn't exist. My only point is that Collier shoots less than almost everyone on our roster, passes more than everyone on our roster and has a lower usage than almost everyone on our roster and that can be a good thing if we want the ball to move around to all of our young players most of whom have a strength in scoring and most of whom need touches and need to be set up on offense.

But maybe Hardy will see no value in that and we have seen the last of collier. You act as if he has no strengths. Which if true would be pretty wild that he is even in the nba. I think that passing is his strength. We will just have to disagree.

Maybe Hardy also puts a ton of stock into summer league like some fans do and how collier performs with the actual team in training camp and actual nba games will matter very little because of what happened in summer league. I hope hardy doesn't put much weight on his coaching decisions based off what transpires during summer league though.

"I dont see Collier on an upward trajectory" I agree and never argued otherwise. I never did see collier as a long term rotational player cause he cant shoot.
"the Jazz traded up to pick someone at his position" Yep the jazz probably agree with me that collier lack of shooting is too severe to overcome and they hope that WCJ will be the point guard of the future.
"You cant just be a passer in the NBA if you cant be efficient or defend at a high level." Untrue. Collier was just a passer in the NBA last season already. Without the shooting efficiency or great defense he cant be a great player though.
"There's a ocean of difference between having to pass the ball to be effective and be a good player who is a willing passer. The former is Collier and the latter is Clayton." Agreed. I never argued otherwise.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Again, you are arguing with someone who doesn't exist.

The irony

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't know how usage stats are calculated but it does feel as if Collier dominates the ball when he is out there. Collier has his moments but there are so many sketchy passes, bad drives into traffic, and he is now trying to draw fouls by throwing up garbage at the rim. In the summer league game against the Spurs his end of half play was trying to draw a 3 point foul by throwing up garbage and his end of game play was a heavily contested deep midrange jumper. I can respect that he might be trying stuff but that stuff looks bad right now. He is just too comfortable making insanely tight passes and driving without a plan. Guy also is missing a ton of free throws. I don't know, the offense feels bad when he is in there, maybe disjointed is the right word for it.

Maybe it fixes itself when he is playing in the regular season and dials it back a bit.

Dont even have to use the word maybe in that last sentence. We have seen him play in the regular season and he didn't dominate the ball and have bad drives into traffic and throw up garbage at the rim. He was trying stuff in summer league. Summer league is dumb.

If he could shoot the ball then we would all love collier and WCJ never gets drafted by the jazz. But he cant shoot the ball at all and that is why he is unlikely to stick in the nba for any team.

 

[fishonjazz]

The irony

So you do think that Collier is a good and willing passer then?

 

[underdog]

You’re taking a broad view and unsuccessfully trying to narrow it down.

Does winning or losing summer league games matter in the grand scheme? Of course not. Does players being competitive and trying to win summer league games matter when it’s your young and upcoming prospects? Of course. It shows competitiveness.

Shooting translates, whether it’s pickup ball or summer league or college. If you ahoot well there, you’ll more than likely shoot fine in the games. If you don’t shoot well, you almost certainly won’t.

If you can’t defend in a summer league game, you won’t be defending well in a regular season game.

The idea that these games don’t matter for anything is just so outlandishly stupid it’s hard to argue against. Might as well say that college games don’t matter. Heck, nba players load manage during the regular season. Regular season games don’t matter now! It’s just stupid, lazy, logic.

What are we talking about here? If we’re talking about what these kids will be in 3-5 years (which is what matters most), a few SL games are pretty meaningless. And that’s what I believe fishonjazz was talking about. And you call it stupid, lazy logic. Hello?

 

[KqWIN]

Collier works well bc he is ball dominant on a roster filled mostly with play finishers. But if you’re hoping to see players develop and expand that part of their games (i.e Ace, Cody, Walt) he is not great for that. Very few players are good enough to demand the on ball share he does, and even when those guys are the elite of the elite it’s questionable if that’s a winning strategy. So either Collier needs to become one of the very best in the game with the ball or develop some skill that will allow him to play without it. Both are fairly unlikely imo.

There’s also the defensive side of the ball. At the end of the day Collier is still a small guard and we’ve seen how the market values small guards who cannot defend. I don’t think he’s terrible, but not exactly a standout performer on that end (I think his turnover problems and missed layups hurt his defensive metrics).

BTW, Collier was 7th in the NBA in on ball% last year. The guys ahead of him are:

Brunson
Trae
Cade
Elfrid Payton
Harden
Lamelo

I think his career will end up like one of these players.

 

[fishonjazz]

You’re taking a broad view and unsuccessfully trying to narrow it down.

Does winning or losing summer league games matter in the grand scheme? Of course not. Does players being competitive and trying to win summer league games matter when it’s your young and upcoming prospects? Of course. It shows competitiveness.

Shooting translates, whether it’s pickup ball or summer league or college. If you ahoot well there, you’ll more than likely shoot fine in the games. If you don’t shoot well, you almost certainly won’t.

If you can’t defend in a summer league game, you won’t be defending well in a regular season game.

The idea that these games don’t matter for anything is just so outlandishly stupid it’s hard to argue against. Might as well say that college games don’t matter. Heck, nba players load manage during the regular season. Regular season games don’t matter now! It’s just stupid, lazy, logic.

"Does winning or losing summer league games matter in the grand scheme? Of course not. Does players being competitive and trying to win summer league games matter when it’s your young and upcoming prospects? Of course. It shows competitiveness." I already know that every player playing in summer league is competitive. If they weren't they would have no chance of ever playing in the nba. Though they might not play their hardest in SL because they know it doesn't matter and they dont want to get hurt in a meaningless game and risk millions of dollars for their future.

"Shooting translates, whether it’s pickup ball or summer league or college. If you ahoot well there, you’ll more than likely shoot fine in the games. If you don’t shoot well, you almost certainly won’t." That kevin durant dude definitely never learned to shoot after his poor shooting in summer league.

"If you can’t defend in a summer league game, you won’t be defending well in a regular season game." Or you improve over time. Get better coaching. Get bigger and stronger. Or you care more in a real game than a summer league when you are a top pick with a guaranteed spot on the team. Lots of variable involved here.

"The idea that these games don’t matter for anything is just so outlandishly stupid it’s hard to argue against. Might as well say that college games don’t matter." The games do matter to dudes trying to get on a roster. They dont matter for much of what is being discussed in the context of my comment that the games dont matter (Rotation in the upcoming season is mostly what I was getting at. Hardy doesn't look at summer league play to determine who starts out of collier or WCJ for example. He will use training camp, practice, pre season and actual regular season game to make those decisions. Hardy doesn't care how collier played in summer league. He cares how he plays in practice and actual nba games.)

"Heck, nba players load manage during the regular season. Regular season games don’t matter now!" This actually quite true for those particular games. If a team and coach really want to win a particular game then they will definitely play their best players if they are available. But the fact is that often times throughout the regular season teams just dont really think every game matters so they rest dudes. You definitely wont see dudes resting in playoff games. They still matter. Many regular season games still matter as well but obviously not all of them.

 

[fishonjazz]

Collier works well bc he is ball dominant on a roster filled mostly with play finishers. But if you’re hoping to see players develop and expand that part of their games (i.e Ace, Cody, Walt) he is not great for that. Very few players are good enough to demand the on ball share he does, and even when those guys are the elite of the elite it’s questionable if that’s a winning strategy. So either Collier needs to become one of the very best in the game with the ball or develop some skill that will allow him to play without it. Both are fairly unlikely imo.

There’s also the defensive side of the ball. At the end of the day Collier is still a small guard and we’ve seen how the market values small guards who cannot defend. I don’t think he’s terrible, but not exactly a standout performer on that end (I think his turnover problems and missed layups hurt his defensive metrics).

BTW, Collier was 7th in the NBA in on ball% last year. The guys ahead of him are:

Brunson
Trae
Cade
Elfrid Payton
Harden
Lamelo

I think his career will end up like one of these players.

I think his career will end up worse than all of those players. Have to be able to shoot better than collier can at his size and position. Cant have walker kessler level shooters playing the point lol.