Keyonte George’s Star Ascension

[KqWIN]

For the record, I can get behind the idea that Key is not as bad as the numbers say. There's enough weirdness around tanking and the possibility that Hardy just stinks as a defensive mind. But you can't just ignore the results entirely and one of the real issues I see with eye test is this idea that there's just this objective opinion that everyone who watched must hold. Two people can watch the games and come away with different opinions, so "eye test" (especially without specifics) is really just a "because I said so" type of argument.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

For the record, I can get behind the idea that Key is not as bad as the numbers say. There's enough weirdness around tanking and the possibility that Hardy just stinks as a defensive mind. But you can't just ignore the results entirely and one of the real issues I see with eye test is this idea that there's just this objective opinion that everyone who watched must hold. Two people can watch the games and come away with different opinions, so "eye test" (especially without specifics) is really just a "because I said so" type of argument.

You're welcome to be wrong if you want to debate Filipowski/Collier/Love/Sensabaugh/Clayton/Hendricks as being better defenders than Keyonte.

And it isn't just because I said so. I said it and a lot of people seem to agree with it. Seems to be a fairly consensus opinion this season, but hit us with the Darko RAPTR LeBron vorp BART combo if you want.

 

[KqWIN]

You're welcome to be wrong if you want to debate Filipowski/Collier/Love/Sensabaugh/Clayton/Hendricks as being better defenders than Keyonte.

And it isn't just because I said so. I said it and a lot of people seem to agree with it. Seems to be a fairly consensus opinion this season, but hit us with the Darko RAPTR LeBron vorp BART combo if you want.

I wouldn't disagree that he's better than some of those guys. Numbers aren't the only thing I consider, but numbers don't necessarily say he's the worst either. The part I disagreed with the most was being so dismissive about numbers. The validity and use of numbers remains the same regardless of whether or Key or Collier is a better defender. Either way, being better than those guys wins the world's smallest trophy. I don't think it's really worth arguing who's the very worst you're this far down the list. I think it's a statement on it's own to have to compare a player to the very worst in the league in an attempt to vouch for him.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I just want to argue for my calculators honor even though I'm wrong.

Got it.

 

[NAOS_pt2]

If you understand the basics of per passion numbers and things like plus minus, APM is a great place to start. I wasn’t able to convince you that a floater is bad shot, so clearly I’m not the one to teach. But there is a wealth of information on the topic out there!

APM and its derivatives are not perfect, and I certainly don’t always agree with it, but it is the basis for modern analytics and always worth considering. A team’s performance with a player on the court relative to the 9 players on the court will never not be important. I would never advocate to follow it blindly, but completely ignoring because “eye test” doesn’t seem right.

I knew the floater wasn't a good shot. I disagreed with the definition of the "floater range" in the data table. This was a nuance that didn't get through to you at the time.

You could try to teach all of us! What fun! What are passion numbers? How do they related to APM? If you're not doing these analyses yourself, then can you be explicit about why we should not only trust the sources that you are trusting, but also keep these numbers in mind whenever we are critiquing or qualifying the eye test from a trusted basketball source (i.e. Cy)? TIA