Whats the fascination with this starting defensive/shotblocking center? I mean, didn't we have enough with Ostertag? We have a 6-10 power guy in the middle now, who gets 20 and 10 from the position and blocks 1.6 shots per 35 minutes. So, you get a better shot blocker, who will give us 2bpg (0.4 more), while giving up 10 points and 3 boards in the process from the position as compared to Jefferson. Al and Paul are our #2 and #3 guys (Millsap already averaged 18 and 11 as a starter when Booz was out and put up similar numbers in play-offs). They need to start together. Millsap and Booz did not work out, because Booz is just not a C. He is smaller than Al, and he is not a purely inside player Al is, who can bother/block shots. Al can do that (1.6 bpg per 35 is a very good number for a C, plus he actually clogs the lane and alters/challenges shots). I agree with KOC that we need a shot blocking big center as a situational back-up. Which is why it is actually important to resign Fess. But we have our starting front court rock solid with Al and Millsap. It's not like before, when with Booz and Memo we didn't have anyone to challenge shots. We got Al now, and that makes a huge difference.
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- Thread starter Dr. Jones
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Whats the fascination with this starting defensive/shotblocking center? I mean, didn't we have enough with Ostertag? We have a 6-10 power guy in the middle now, who gets 20 and 10 from the position and blocks 1.6 shots per 35 minutes. So, you get a better shot blocker, who will give us 2bpg (0.4 more), while giving up 10 points and 3 boards in the process from the position as compared to Jefferson. Al and Paul are our #2 and #3 guys (Millsap already averaged 18 and 11 as a starter when Booz was out and put up similar numbers in play-offs). They need to start together. Millsap and Booz did not work out, because Booz is just not a C. He is smaller than Al, and he is not a purely inside player Al is, who can bother/block shots. Al can do that (1.6 bpg per 35 is a very good number for a C, plus he actually clogs the lane and alters/challenges shots). I agree with KOC that we need a shot blocking big center as a situational back-up. Which is why it is actually important to resign Fess. But we have our starting front court rock solid with Al and Millsap. It's not like before, when with Booz and Memo we didn't have anyone to challenge shots. We got Al now, and that makes a huge difference.
How did that Jefferson-Love C/PF frontcourt work out for Minnesota? (and Love has an inch or so over Sap) AJ-Sap at C/PF would be undersized at those positions. Combine that with Deron and Sloan, that's fine if you only want to make the playoffs. But again not a threat to the Lakers.
The Jazz need a 6-11 or better starting defensive center to maximize Jefferson as a big-ish 6-10 260 PF. KOC has done a good job this summer but he's still at third base and needs that other guy to make this a home run of an offseason.
As to Ostertag, the problem was not that he was big and actually blocked shots, it was that he was clumsy and had butter fingers. If he was more coordinated, he'd be like a Mutombo. And if Malone had a Mutombo alongside him, damn. But how far would the S&M Jazz had gone if they had started Karl at C and say Malik Rose at PF? Jefferson isn't Malone and there's no Mutombo out there but somebody taller/bigger than a Malik Rose-type is required.
Love and Al did not work out not because of 1 inch of height, but because of lack of speed. That's why you seen Kahn trading for Beasley: much smaller PF, who is mobile. That the problem we had: when Okur and Booz were on the floor: we had no mobility and no shot blocking/altering presence. When Booz and Millsap were on the floor, we had no inside shot altering presence, and size was pretty small too. Now, with Al and Millsap, we are bigger, and more importantly finally have inside presence defensively and have ability to discourage teams from penetrating because of Al's shot blocking ability. We also don't lack in speed as with Memo/Booz starting line-up, because Jefferson/Millsap are a lot faster and Millsap will be guarding the quicker player, while Al providing inside presence.
True, there will be occasions when we want to put a long shot blocker on the floor, and that's where Fess comes in. But that does not mean we need a STARTING C, who is 6-11 or better. We have a center who is 6-10, an inch smaller, but has 7-3 wingspan, is inside presence, and blocks 1.6 shots in 35 mins. We can have a huge 7 footer who can block shots (Fess) on the bench.
In this line up (Rose/Karl) we have no one who is a shot blocking/altering inside presence. In our current starting line up, we have a 6-10 C, who is.
Jefferson blocks some shots but he's not known as a defensive anchor. Gasol is taller, blocks more shots but making him start at center and getting a 6-8 PF alongside him isn't LA's formula for domination. I'd like Jefferson to guard Gasol and a starting defensive center on Bynum, or vice versa. But as it is, it's going to be Jefferson on Bynum, Millsap on Gasol -- how's that going to work out?
Fes is big but doesn't really know how to play basketball. He's okay as a back-up or 3rd stringer but against LA, a situational sub won't do because those towers are the 'situation' all game long.
Even if Karl could've blocked that super 1.6 blocks a game, you still wouldn't have started him at C and gotten a Malik Rose-type as starting PF. Just like Malone, the Jazz must maximize Jefferson's potential as a good-sized PF and get him a defensive center. If KOC doesn't get that starting defensive center, he would have had a good but incomplete offseason. If KOC does get that, I bet we all rejoice and dream big.
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
Even though Okur and Jefferson compliment each other with the inside outside game, I think Milsap might just be too good overall not to start. Okur will still get plenty of minutes with Al when Milsap rests. Milsap's ability to provide great help D outweighs Okur's 3 point game.
Jefferson(35) / Okur(13) / Fes (x)
Milsap (32) / Okur (16) / Evans (x)
AK (30) / Miles (10) / Hayward (8)
Bell (25) / Miles (15) / Hayward (8)
Williams (38) / Price (10) / Gaines (x)
x = no playing time unless injury or foul trouble
Jefferson(35) / Okur(13) / Fes (x)
Milsap (32) / Okur (16) / Evans (x)
AK (30) / Miles (10) / Hayward (8)
Bell (25) / Miles (15) / Hayward (8)
Williams (38) / Price (10) / Gaines (x)
x = no playing time unless injury or foul trouble
NAOS
Well-Known Member
I don't see any glaring problems here. However, Okur will not be getting that many minutes until late Feb/early March. Fes will get time. AK will play minutes at PF.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
That's pretty much along the lines of what I've been thinking. Whether you call Okur or Jefferson the C or PF when they're on the court together is immaterial. Okur will play on the perimeter and Jefferson will always play down low. Miles definitely plays some at both wing positions. Ideally, I'd like Hayward to develop fast and get 15-20 mins/per, but we know Sloan ain't gonna let that happen, not with Raja coming back (and after Bell kissed Sloan's *** with everything he said).
I could possibly see CJ starting at SF. That allows AK to be the "veteran" heading up the 2nd unit and for AK to initiate the offense when Deron comes out, taking the pressure off Price/Gaines. I had CJ starting at SG, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced Sloan will want the best defender on the opponent's starting 2 - and that means Raja.
The Ghost of Blue Edwards
Member
Williams, Bell, and Okur, no?
The Ghost of Blue Edwards
Member
Me gets a bad feeling Price will be playing a lot of 2 this year if Utah doesn't sign another wing. Please don't do it Jerry.
It sure worked for them when Bynum was injured (which was most of the time). Gasol went to first all star game playing C and was good enough of a defensive anchor to win West. Make no mistake: Gasol is very capable C, and he blocks EXACTLY as many shots as Jefferson in 35 mpg.
LA is tough because they got two 7 footers up front. Anyone will have a problem with that. With that said, they beat us pretty much every time with Gasol and Odom, since Bynum is always injured. Against Gasol and Odom, I think Jefferson and Millsap have a MUCH better chance than Booz/Millsap/Okur combination. And through in Fess too on occasion. Previously with Booz and Memo on the floor, Odom was reaping us new one. With Booz/Millsap, Gasol was the one reaping Booz apart. And with Memo/Paul, we are just not talented enough. Now Jefferson (who is bigger than Booz and plays bigger than his size) will defend Gasol, and Millsap will defend Odom. That's much better. And offensively Gasol will not be able to rest anymore, he will have to really bang inside with Al (Odom cannot even guard Al, even though he could guard Booz). Does LA still have advantage up front. Perhaps, but much less so than before.
Well, we never played against healthy Bynum, and LA beats us every year. So I don't know how it will be. If Bynum/Gasol are both healthy, it will be tough against any team. No one else has 2 7 footers with as much skill. On the defensive end though these guys will have work to do.
There is a reason why Karl didn't block that many shots and Al does. Al is a Center/Forward, and Karl is a PF. And of course I would like to have prime Mutombo over Millsap, but Deke was perennial all star/defensive team selection. If we just get some average player who can defend and block shots, like Haywood, is it really better than having a PF like Millsap, who can probably close to 20-10 as a starter? I don't think so. And by the, way did you see contract size of 31 year old Haywood, that he just signed? I will take Millsap and his contract any time.
Last season Bynum was injured a number of times but he started 65 times at center, which means Gasol started at C 17 times. So obviously you're wrong that it was 'most of the time'.
The strategy that Bynum will be injured when we play them is the same strategy that hopefully the Jazz never meet the Lakers in the playoffs on the way to a title. But yep, Gasol + Odom have also been bad for the Jazz -- and that won't change much if we just go with a 6-10 C and 6-8 PF. But maybe Odom or Gasol would be injured too?
About that, you don't remember Malone doing the centerly things in the small line-up? The Jazz often went with that on stretches. Karl just wasn't a shot-blocker as he was more of a ball-slapper.
That's the crux of it really. There are those like you who would prefer a 6-8 PF and make Jefferson play as a 6-10 C like in Minnesota. That is just not going to get it done at the elite level if we have learned anything from playing the Lakers since they got Gasol.
Again, Jefferson would be great as our 6-10 PF but he'll need a 6-11 or better starting defensive center. I really like Millsap but he'll have to come off the bench as PF again and, as Deron's the only untouchable, is also a possible trade chip for a starting defensive center.
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gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
He said. - This gives 3 shooters and a low post scorer and Deron the ability to really run an offense -
So 3 shooters Deron and AL. It really looks like he called AK a shooter.