Jazz O rotations looking much better.

[billyshelby]

Is a guy who averages 19.5 points per 36 minutes not generally a substantially better scorer than a guy scoring 15 per 36 with more field goal attempts (if their minutes are in the same ball park)?

Sure. But I'm talking about passing.

 

[billyshelby]

Just riffing, but the Hayward thing last night really bugged me. It brought back memories of how we misused AK for so many years. With Terry on Hayward, the focus should have been posting Hayward. The key is not Hayward drilling Terry for buckets. Hayward's not actually that great a post player. But that's a fantastic vantage point to pass which he is good at. It's just like the Hawks used to use Joe Johnson who always posted. If you give Hayward a cutting pass option while he's posting, he might be a lot better as a post player.

 

[GVC]

I assume you meant Deron. And yeah, the luxury of the old Jazz teams was having Deron to fix late clock ugliness. But late clock ugliness shouldn't have to come down to a star (although it's really nice to have). I completely agree with you that if we're not going to have a plan to reset the offense, the best move is to get it to Al.

But I'd still like our first half shot clock offense to work better. And whether it's Al or Sap, going to the block for 3/4 of the offense is still the best move. Just give them an offense to play in, not make them have to score. And by all means, play matchups like we should have done the other night exploiting Terry with Hayward. Or, even better, picking an Al/Sap matchup on the block night to night. We have the talent to hurt teams on offense, we just don't do it.

I meant Devin. Deron was in another league during his Jazz tenure than either Mo or Devin.

And I agree.

 

[GVC]

Sure. But I'm talking about passing.

Alluding to Chicago-era Boozer averaging 28% more assists per 36 than Utah-era Jefferson, despite getting a lower percentage of his team's possessions (should have used 19 v. 15 pp36). Boozer's stats still indicate he's a substantially better passer than Jefferson.

 

[GVC]

Just riffing, but the Hayward thing last night really bugged me. It brought back memories of how we misused AK for so many years. With Terry on Hayward, the focus should have been posting Hayward. The key is not Hayward drilling Terry for buckets. Hayward's not actually that great a post player. But that's a fantastic vantage point to pass which he is good at. It's just like the Hawks used to use Joe Johnson who always posted. If you give Hayward a cutting pass option while he's posting, he might be a lot better as a post player.

Not to mention that a predictable/one-track offense is going to run into trouble at the end of close games (and in the playoffs) when defenses tighten.

 

[billyshelby]

Alluding to Chicago-era Boozer averaging 28% more assists per 36 than Utah-era Jefferson, despite getting a lower percentage of his team's possessions. Boozer's stats still indicate he's a substantially better passer than Jefferson.

I'll buy that. Booze was a better passer than Al on my watch. My only caveat would be that we haven't seen Al pass on a stable team. After the Deron season imploded, he was used like his Minny days last season. This year, Ty still hasn't figured out sending cutters might be useful while he's on the block. Just using the eyeball test, I've seen Al and Sap pass the ball to each other on the interior effectively. I'd like to see Al (or Sap) fail or succeed passing the ball to actual cutters in the offense. Not sure if we'll ever see that with Ty at the helm.

 

[billyshelby]

Not to mention that a predictable/one-track offense is going to run into trouble at the end of close games (and in the playoffs) when defenses tighten.

100% agree. The offense we run is death in the playoffs. We're only going to stay respectable in the team stats numbers based on our talent. Once we need a half court offense, we're cooked.

 

[GVC]

I'd like to see Al (or Sap) fail or succeed passing the ball to actual cutters in the offense. Not sure if we'll ever see that with Ty at the helm.

They tried Al from the high post a bit in preseason, with action along the baselines, and he didn't respond well. Marvin's been cutting more than any Jazz wing did last season as well (although mostly along the baseline on the weak side when Al has the ball in the high post), but Al is slow to react. He didn't show a consistent ability to hit cutters under Jerry either. Last season Ty found a simple formula that minimizes risk and is fairly effective. It'd be nice if he gave the changes more time before giving up on them (let alone add some of the other wrinkles discussed in this thread), but the guard play is making that an inevitability at this point (chuck chuck chuck). He'll reel it in even more and go short-sighted by playing dump-it-in-to-Al ball pretty soon.

 

[NAOS]

This thread depresses the **** out of me.

 

[franklin]

I agree with much of what you said above and most of us have no desire to acknowledge the difficulty of his situation. So when do you let a guy go? How do you even measure what Corbin is doing if you pull the Corbin's-in-a-tough-situation card? Are there better coaches out there, or is he the best we can get? He's the guy running the show. The great leaders of the world should get all the credit in the world when they succeed, but they sure as hell should be criticized every damn day of their life until they obviously show mastery of their craft or sphere. I agree that we should give him some time, but we should by no means speak with hushed tones when Corbin is near like he's a Byzantine emperor. I like a lot of things about Corbin and am willing to give him even this entire season to see what he can do. However, I didn't join Jazzfanz to remain quiet about the head coach of my team--there you have it.

I don't mind constructive criticism, in fact I enjoy it.

Rational posters tend to forget my penchant for mocking useful idiots who scream at the top of their lungs like babbling fools tend to do, only to switch to the opposite stance two days later.

 

[franklin]

This thread depresses the **** out of me.

Yeah? Well let me introduce you to the Jazz' greatest new go to play: drive and dish woot twoot! Awesome play isn't it.

 

[billyshelby]

They tried Al from the high post a bit in preseason, with action along the baselines, and he didn't respond well. Marvin's been cutting more than any Jazz wing did last season as well (although mostly along the baseline on the weak side when Al has the ball in the high post), but Al is slow to react. He didn't show a consistent ability to hit cutters under Jerry either. Last season Ty found a simple formula that minimizes risk and is fairly effective. It'd be nice if he gave the changes more time before giving up on them (let alone add some of the other wrinkles discussed in this thread), but the guard play is making that an inevitability at this point (chuck chuck chuck). He'll reel it in even more and go short-sighted by playing dump-it-in-to-Al ball pretty soon.

I'm not seeing this. I've rarely seen Marvin cut. Al actually got the ball at the top of the key a fair amount tonight, but early in the clock, and his job was to watch the baseline cuts that never work.

The general difference between Ty and Sloan teams is that once the ball goes into the post, there is no action off the ball. At all. Whatsoever. Boozer always had options even if he took a dumb fadeaway. Neither Paul nor Al ever have a cutter.

 

[franklin]

I'm not a hundred percent sure I'm following you. Our base offense (when we're not running PnR's), from what I see, starts with Mo at the top (or the 1). We run flex cuts with baseline crosses under the basket which get Al set and Mo usually passes off to the wing on his side. He then proceeds to run through the lane, pretends to set a screen, and pops back up on the arc opposite the post. Once the wing dumps to the post, which is often nearly at the top of the key, Al is stranded with the ball on the block. He's got one wing guy to pass to (sort of), and 3 other guys stationary on the other side of the key. So his only option is to score or pass out.

That's basically it. It doesn't matter if the pass comes from the 1 or 2 really because floor spacing is identical -- Al on the post, passer sending the ball down way too North to South, and the other three guys spread across the opposite wing. Passer goes to the spot most easily and already guarded.

Corbin can semi-fix this IMO by putting two guys on the strong side wing (option 1.a), cutting two players from strong wing at the same time (1.b) & in succession (1.c), & pushing Millsap down low (option 2). If Jefferson is getting doubled/trippled they might as well have a threat close to the basket.

I'm not seeing this. I've rarely seen Marvin cut. Al actually got the ball at the top of the key a fair amount tonight, but early in the clock, and his job was to watch the baseline cuts that never work.

The second unit lead by Tinsley last night actually executed a continuously moving offense. I'm buying more into the starters refusing to run the system and selfishly looking out for themselves. Millsap is running lazy *** cuts and looks like he's all out refusing to set his man up hard before changing directions. Mo is a chucker plain and simple. Everyone else looks like a deer in the headlights when they get the ball. They have an urgency to do something with it a.s.a.p. rather than read the defense and let plays develop.

Starters aren't running an offense & the second unit is. Just another piece to the puzzle of figuring out who exactly Tyrone Corbin is.

 

[Hotdog]

This^^^^

And

That\/\/\/