Are you guys completely cool with your kids dating/marrying someone of a different race?

[Stoked]

Why? Are you under the impression that I think no Mormon woman would ever be allowed to make household decisions?



Why not both?

You are under the impression that the Mormon religion has a lesser view of women and places them under the man.

Because I can see what the problems are. Why? Because I understand what Mormons really are. Sexism or mysogony are not on the list (generally speaking as I am sure that some individual members are. That is who they are as a person not a religion).

 

[One Brow]

I don't have any sons. I am an all girl/woman household.

Right, that prevents you from answering the questions. Of course. I mean, you could have answers about what you would say to a nephew or a cousin, or you could have answered hypothetically, but that would violate some principle, right?

Please show where I made the claimt hat the Mormon Church is or is not comprable to the Catholics or JWs. I may contest your claims on the Mormon culture but I stray from those two cultures as I am uninformed.

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php...different-race&p=518472&viewfull=1#post518472

You even bolded that part.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

My first question is, if you think women really closer to God than men, than when a man refers to another man as being a "*****" or a "high-school girl", is your first reaction that they just played that man a high compliment? Are you saying that we should all be ******* and act like high-school girls? Do you tell you son to "woman up", "face it like a woman", or "grow some breasts"?

Secondly, if the Priesthood is composed of those who are further from God, why do the leaders of the congregation come from it? Why would you not want the leaders of your household and congregation to be the people closest to God?

The sentiments you express are certainly lovely, and very similar what I hear from other religious groups, some of whom I know much better than Mormons. In those various groups, they form a rationalization for denying the misogyny. This seems to be another example of the pedestal in action. As long as the woman stays on her small pedestal, she is to be worshiped, but when he steps down, she is to be condemned, while men are so weak that their bad behaviors are more generally excused or glossed over. Maybe it doesn't work that way with Mormons, but so far I have seen any indication that things are different.

This is exactly what I was talking about in the beginning of posting on this subject. You refuse to understand another point of view and it seems to me you have an agenda here.

You are confusing the doctrines and organization of the LDS Church with the weaknesses of men... if in fact they say those sorts of things you use as an example. I have never said any of those things, and probably never will. Can you find anything in the church teachings that say men should say things like that? I would recommend you stop equating what some men do to what the LDS Church teaches or is.

Secondly there are multiple ways to be close to God, and I believe you are again purposefully misunderstanding what I say. I never did say that women are closer to God than Men, but again you will see what you want to see.

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would try to engage the conversation and at least give it an effort to truly understand another point of view, but I'm not seeing anything. I see the same twisting of words, and agenda driven poking and prodding trying to prove you are a genius, right, and the most objective man in the world. Just my opinion. I'm done, but wish you well. Spin on.

 

[One Brow]

You are under the impression that the Mormon religion has a lesser view of women and places them under the man.

Which prevents the occasional outlier in what fashion?

Because I can see what the problems are. Why? Because I understand what Mormons really are. Sexism or mysogony are not on the list (generally speaking as I am sure that some individual members are. That is who they are as a person not a religion).

They are enough on the list that you couldn't bother to repudiate blatantly misogynistic language, instead you dodged with 'no son here'. I don't see any reason to think it's less on the list than for any other religious group.

 

[One Brow]

We are told that all women are to be respected and cherished. As far as "being in charge"... what does that mean? In my marriage, no one person holds the final say in any given situation. I think you're projecting your perceptions here.

For a person who brought up what they were told in their church, you are curiously unwilling to clarify what you were told in the church on that subject.

 

[Bronco70]

For a person who brought up what they were told in their church, you are curiously unwilling to clarify what you were told in the church on that subject.

Straw Bronco70 can be pretty vague and evasive. He's kind of a douche.

 

[One Brow]

... if in fact they say those sorts of things you use as an example. I have never said any of those things, and probably never will.

That is highly commendable. Do you also go the extra mile, and repudiate those who do, or do you passively allow it?

Can you find anything in the church teachings that say men should say things like that?

You won't find any Catholic teaching that say it's OK to insult men by comparing them to women, nor JW teachings like that. Yet, misogyny is rife in both groups. So, the absence of such a teaching is not evidence of the absence of misogyny.

Perhaps you can show me some teaching where it says you should not insult men by comparing them to women?

I would recommend you stop equating what some men do to what the LDS Church teaches or is.

A religion is just as much the culture of it's adherents as its official dogma, probably more so.

Secondly there are multiple ways to be close to God, and I believe you are again purposefully misunderstanding what I say. I never did say that women are closer to God than Men, but again you will see what you want to see.

When I read, "that women do not need it as they already share with God in creation and have a bond or link with Him that cannot be obtained by men", and I didn't see you mention there there is some different link men can have and women can not, I concluded that you men the nature of the available links was unequal. Perhaps I was too hasty. Do you think men have some sort of link with God not attainable by women, that is a counterbalance to their link in creation (birthing, I presume, perhaps in error). What is the nature of that link?

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would try to engage the conversation and at least give it an effort to truly understand another point of view, but I'm not seeing anything.

No offense intended, but I saw very little that has not been used as a rationalization for misogyny within other religions. I can appreciate that every person thinks their religion is special and sacred. It's hard to face when that specialness doesn't seem to be viewed or appreciated by others.

Edit to add: having been a Catholic and a nearly joined the JWs, I do have personal experience with 1) the feelings I describe in the last paragraph, and 2) believing in the lofty depictions you offered. You think I don't understand, but I have actually had very similar thought to what you offer, and I remember what it was like to have them.

 

[One Brow]

Straw Bronco70 can be pretty vague and evasive. He's kind of a douche.

My apologies. You actually said "conference talk", not church, and I should have been more careful about where you had heard things.

So, just to be clear, at the conference talk you referred to, you were told that the man is not the head of the household? Or, is it that marriages need to be equal, with men in charge?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

That is highly commendable. Do you also go the extra mile, and repudiate those who do, or do you passively allow it?



You won't find any Catholic teaching that say it's OK to insult men by comparing them to women, nor JW teachings like that. Yet, misogyny is rife in both groups. So, the absence of such a teaching is not evidence of the absence of misogyny.

Perhaps you can show me some teaching where it says you should not insult men by comparing them to women?



A religion is just as much the culture of it's adherents as its official dogma, probably more so.





When I read, "that women do not need it as they already share with God in creation and have a bond or link with Him that cannot be obtained by men", and I didn't see you mention there there is some different link men can have and women can not, I concluded that you men the nature of the available links was unequal. Perhaps I was too hasty. Do you think men have some sort of link with God not attainable by women, that is a counterbalance to their link in creation (birthing, I presume, perhaps in error). What is the nature of that link?



No offense intended, but I saw very little that has not been used as a rationalization for misogyny within other religions. I can appreciate that every person thinks their religion is special and sacred. It's hard to face when that specialness doesn't seem to be viewed or appreciated by others.

Edit to add: having been a Catholic and a nearly joined the JWs, I do have personal experience with 1) the feelings I describe in the last paragraph, and 2) believing in the lofty depictions you offered. You think I don't understand, but I have actually had very similar thought to what you offer, and I remember what it was like to have them.

Not really... you argued points with no understanding intended.

I gave you the option, but you gave it a really poor effort that was nowhere close and then continued to argue more points.

I don't care if you think my religion is special or sacred as it is to me, was just giving you a chance to clear up your misunderstanding. Now that you have passed on that opportunity I will just view your words as intentional lies. Ignorance is no excuse to say untrue things, especially intentional ignorance.

Like I said before, spin on.

Please do not respond to this post... I will not respond after this... really this time.

 

[Bronco70]

My apologies. You actually said "conference talk", not church, and I should have been more careful about where you had heard things.

So, just to be clear, at the conference talk you referred to, you were told that the man is not the head of the household? Or, is it that marriages need to be equal, with men in charge?

C'mon Brow... you know I'm just ****ing with you, right?

But the answer to your question is, neither. I have never been taught specifically that men are not head of the household. Likewise, I have never been taught specifically that women are not head of the household. I think that distinction exists in most people's minds because of an ingrained need to organize. Like I said, I am a practicing mormon, and my wife and I run the joint 50/50. I have been taught that I am responsible for my family, not because I am the only one who can be, but because I need to have that responsibility to learn and grow. My wife is taught the same way.

You haven't answered my question of what you mean when you say "the man is in charge". Does this mean all final decisions rest with him? Or that all activity must be cleared through him? Or that he directs the minutia of the household? You need to expand a little bit so I know what you're trying to trap me with.

The problem is, you have an almost comically broad definition of misogyny (and racism, and sexism, etc., etc., etc.) That's great for you. Ultimately, whether or not you consider me misogynist is of no consequence to me. How my wife and my children view me is of great importance, and I'm pretty confident they would disagree you with completely. So, in that respect, I feel pretty good.

 

[Scat]

I don't have any sons. I am an all girl/woman household.

As am I. I would argue that Stoked and I likely have empowered our daughters to a great extent. A couple weeks ago my 19 year old was at a dance club. Some guy kept harassing her and she kept telling him to go away. He eventually grabbed her and pushed her up against the wall. For his troubles he received a head butt accompanied by a broken nose and a foot to the groin. I had to leave the house at 1:30 in the morning to go pick her up. She thought I'd be pissed as hell for making me leave the house that time of night. I told her I couldn't be more proud. I've always taught them that if you think things are going south, hit hard and ask questions later. That's exactly what she did.

The guy that got his *** kicked wanted to press charges. Fortunately a security camera caught the entire incidence as well as several witnesses that watched it go down.

 

[Hartsock]

As am I. I would argue that Stoked and I likely have empowered our daughters to a great extent. A couple weeks ago my 19 year old was at a dance club. Some guy kept harassing her and she kept telling him to go away. He eventually grabbed her and pushed her up against the wall. For his troubles he received a head butt accompanied by a broken nose and a foot to the groin. I had to leave the house at 1:30 in the morning to go pick her up. She thought I'd be pissed as hell for making me leave the house that time of night. I told her I couldn't be more proud. I've always taught them that if you think things are going south, hit hard and ask questions later. That's exactly what she did.

The guy that got his *** kicked wanted to press charges. Fortunately a security camera caught the entire incidence as well as several witnesses that watched it go down.

How demoralizing would it be to stand before a judge and tell them you got your *** kicked by a girl?

 

[Scat]

How demoralizing would it be to stand before a judge and tell them you got your *** kicked by a girl?

I'm trying to decide if you're trolling OB or being serious...

 

[Stoked]

Right, that prevents you from answering the questions. Of course. I mean, you could have answers about what you would say to a nephew or a cousin, or you could have answered hypothetically, but that would violate some principle, right?



https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php...different-race&p=518472&viewfull=1#post518472

You even bolded that part.

Congrats. You linked to something where I am bolding a part of your reply that deals with Mormons and addressing that portion of it. Never got into Catholics or JWs.

 

[Stoked]

Which prevents the occasional outlier in what fashion?



They are enough on the list that you couldn't bother to repudiate blatantly misogynistic language, instead you dodged with 'no son here'. I don't see any reason to think it's less on the list than for any other religious group.

Would I tell a son to "woman up"? No, of course not. But I do not tell my daughters to "man up".

 

[The Black Swordsman]

Oh my this thread grew really fast. Also it always baffles me that atheists argue about the supposed lack of morality in religions when in their worldview there is no such basis of objective morality so it is a self defeating argument.

 

[silesian]

1) If you don't interpret a phrase like "narrows the scope" to indicate focusing on a subset, then what does that phrase mean to you?
2) Both are true, and what I have read reflects both. Not all sexism is misogyny, but where sexism exists, misogyny will also be present. They are not contradictory, nor even contrary.

Okay, it seems you have narrowed the scope by creating subsets of sexism into misogyny and misandry.

There are subsets are hostile sexism (misogyny/ misandry) and benevolent sexism (my example of “boys don’t do dishes”). This is both the case in common usage and in academic research, and yes, if you believe that sexism always involves hatred, I think this is inconsistent with both.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree.

 

[silesian]

it always baffles me that atheists argue about the supposed lack of morality in religions when in their worldview there is no such basis of objective morality so it is a self defeating argument.

Most atheists do not in fact have that world view (no objective morality without God). I'm a Unitarian and know A LOT of atheists

https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/new...-31-atheism-morality-evolution-religion_n.htm

Or, if you really want to go deep, read up on Kant's categorical imperative.

 

[Stoked]

How demoralizing would it be to stand before a judge and tell them you got your *** kicked by a girl?

My 5 year old will more than likely make more than 1 guy end up doing that. She beat a 10 year olds butt this weekend. Slapped the girl to the ground with one shot then pinned her there till she have up. She even pulled a nifty little scissor lock to her head. She has also blackened my eye and bloodied her older sisters nose a couple times.

 

[Stoked]

As am I. I would argue that Stoked and I likely have empowered our daughters to a great extent. A couple weeks ago my 19 year old was at a dance club. Some guy kept harassing her and she kept telling him to go away. He eventually grabbed her and pushed her up against the wall. For his troubles he received a head butt accompanied by a broken nose and a foot to the groin. I had to leave the house at 1:30 in the morning to go pick her up. She thought I'd be pissed as hell for making me leave the house that time of night. I told her I couldn't be more proud. I've always taught them that if you think things are going south, hit hard and ask questions later. That's exactly what she did.

The guy that got his *** kicked wanted to press charges. Fortunately a security camera caught the entire incidence as well as several witnesses that watched it go down.

Damn right. Good on her and you for teaching her self respect, independence and the ability to protect both.