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Are you guys completely cool with your kids dating/marrying someone of a different race?

I asked you if your position expanded in some very specific ways, that seemed at odds with other policies, without saying you were wrong. You could have pointed out other reasons for those policies (I even suggested one in a later post). Your reaction was to claim I contradicted you. I was raised to expect every idea of mine to be challenged, sifted, and refined. Perhaps you're not comfortable with that approach, and took it as hostility.

Again, you don't owe me anything. However, when you make false statements about my motivations and intents, I'm not going to let them stand unchallenged.

No false statements, just telling you that's how I view you based on our "conversation", and your posts. Pure opinion, no true or false going on here. My "point of view", if you will.

Your lack of questions about what I believe and why, and yet your constant questions trying to find a contradiction in everything I say and what you think "my policies" are are very telling. It does not appear you challenge all ideas, just the ones you want challenged, and you are skipping a step in the whole quest for truth process. First you need to understand something before you can truly challenge it. After challenging something, there would also have to be rejection of something and acceptance of something. If you are not open to acceptance, then it is not a challenge for growth but a challenge with only winning in mind whether right or wrong. A challenge to find truth is one thing, a challenge to become the winner is totally different.

You use clever words to slight and downgrade what others post, and leave a hint of condescension to seem and sound better than them. You say some token words to make it seem as if you are "searching for truth" or just want to "clarify" some things. To me you are wearing a smiling mask of good intentions, but it covers something else (what I call an agenda).

Again, no true or false going on here. Go ahead and prove me wrong... or not... but this is my opinion.

Could it be you don't know you come across this way? I guess it could be possible, but for the smartest and most objective person on the board and in the world it doesn't seem likely.
 
I'm guessing he's not the type that would have opened the door for my daughter. There's a reason I look for these things.

In my experience, the real jerks are careful to adopt social niceties, to hide their jerkdom from people who don't see them often.
 
No false statements, just telling you that's how I view you based on our "conversation", and your posts. Pure opinion, no true or false going on here. My "point of view", if you will.

What a lovely backtrack, but, no. My intentions are not proper subjects for your opinions. Speculations, perhaps, but not opinions. When you say I am being intentionally ignorant, then right or wrong, you are making a factual claim.

Secondly, if the Priesthood is composed of those who are further from God, why do the leaders of the congregation come from it? Why would you not want the leaders of your household and congregation to be the people closest to God?

Your lack of questions about what I believe and why, and yet your constant questions trying to find a contradiction in everything I say and what you think "my policies" are are very telling.

I'll be the first person to acknowledge that my questions are sharp, pointed, and designed to challenge. They are still questions that I am interested in the answer to. Sometimes, the answer is "your question is based on a faulty assumption", and then that is a good answer. Also, I am more interested in the Mormon culture as a whole, and have been interpreting your answers in that light. Perhaps I mistook your personal interpretations as such. If so, my apologies. For all I know, you think a male-only priesthood is archaic, and simply have not said so outright.

So, if you so desire, I am really interested in what you think about these extrapolations of what you said (again, "your question is based on a false assumption" is valid, although that will of course have a natural followup):

You described women as having a natural bond with God through creation (assumption on my part: birthing) that men don't have. You haven't described any sort of compensating closeness for men. In that light, if the Priesthood is composed of those who are further from God, why do the leaders of the congregation come from it? Why would you not want the leaders of your household and congregation to be the people closest to God?

It does not appear you challenge all ideas, just the ones you want challenged, and you are skipping a step in the whole quest for truth process. First you need to understand something before you can truly challenge it. After challenging something, there would also have to be rejection of something and acceptance of something. If you are not open to acceptance, then it is not a challenge for growth but a challenge with only winning in mind whether right or wrong. A challenge to find truth is one thing, a challenge to become the winner is totally different.

I'm not interested in winning nor in some ultimate truth. The goal of my challenge is reflection and change. I don't know if Hartsock was being facetious, but if he ever actually uses the phrase "Woman up!", or stops using phrases like "Man up", that's an accomplishment. If Stoked does decide to ask his wife (or ex-wife, other female acquaintance) about wether women understand men better than men understand women, and they have a conversation on the issue, that conversation will have ripples in Stoked's future conversations. Culture changes can't be dictated from above (at least, not easily), they have to be grown. Part of that is word choice. Our word choices have feedback on the our thoughts as well as the thoughts of others.

To me you are wearing a smiling mask of good intentions, but it covers something else (what I call an agenda).

Again, no true or false going on here. Go ahead and prove me wrong... or not... but this is my opinion.

I absolutely have an agenda, as described in my previous paragraph. Any time that seems unclear, just ask. However, it's quite possible to both have an agenda and want to gain accurate knowledge about what you are challenging. I would even argue that doing the first without doing the second is as foolish as any religious activity.
 
What a lovely backtrack, but, no. My intentions are not proper subjects for your opinions. Speculations, perhaps, but not opinions. When you say I am being intentionally ignorant, then right or wrong, you are making a factual claim.

Secondly, if the Priesthood is composed of those who are further from God, why do the leaders of the congregation come from it? Why would you not want the leaders of your household and congregation to be the people closest to God?



I'll be the first person to acknowledge that my questions are sharp, pointed, and designed to challenge. They are still questions that I am interested in the answer to. Sometimes, the answer is "your question is based on a faulty assumption", and then that is a good answer. Also, I am more interested in the Mormon culture as a whole, and have been interpreting your answers in that light. Perhaps I mistook your personal interpretations as such. If so, my apologies. For all I know, you think a male-only priesthood is archaic, and simply have not said so outright.

So, if you so desire, I am really interested in what you think about these extrapolations of what you said (again, "your question is based on a false assumption" is valid, although that will of course have a natural followup):

You described women as having a natural bond with God through creation (assumption on my part: birthing) that men don't have. You haven't described any sort of compensating closeness for men. In that light, if the Priesthood is composed of those who are further from God, why do the leaders of the congregation come from it? Why would you not want the leaders of your household and congregation to be the people closest to God?



I'm not interested in winning nor in some ultimate truth. The goal of my challenge is reflection and change. I don't know if Hartsock was being facetious, but if he ever actually uses the phrase "Woman up!", or stops using phrases like "Man up", that's an accomplishment. If Stoked does decide to ask his wife (or ex-wife, other female acquaintance) about wether women understand men better than men understand women, and they have a conversation on the issue, that conversation will have ripples in Stoked's future conversations. Culture changes can't be dictated from above (at least, not easily), they have to be grown. Part of that is word choice. Our word choices have feedback on the our thoughts as well as the thoughts of others.



I absolutely have an agenda, as described in my previous paragraph. Any time that seems unclear, just ask. However, it's quite possible to both have an agenda and want to gain accurate knowledge about what you are challenging. I would even argue that doing the first without doing the second is as foolish as any religious activity.

I absolutely have to disagree here. He can give an opinion about anything he wants about you or your thoughts, intentions, actions, opinions.... Just as you can him. Or you and I on one another.
 
What a lovely backtrack, but, no. My intentions are not proper subjects for your opinions. Speculations, perhaps, but not opinions. When you say I am being intentionally ignorant, then right or wrong, you are making a factual claim.

And why in your flawed world of understanding words would your intentions not be proper subjects for my opinions? I say what I say, and it is my opinion that you are the way you are. My opinion is mine and can be about anything I want it to be about and on any subject I want it to be on.

Secondly, if the Priesthood is composed of those who are further from God, why do the leaders of the congregation come from it? Why would you not want the leaders of your household and congregation to be the people closest to God?

Your statement is based an faulty assumptions and do not represent the meaning of what I said to you. Lets just assume you are a mortal person for a second here, and you are standing still and facing north. You can have multiple people close to you. You can have a person directly behind you that is equally close to you as a person standing to your right, and a person to your left, and a person in front of you. They are all equally close to you, and yet have a unique perspective of what you look like. Similar to this it is possible for multiple people to be close to God, and yet in different ways. [sarcasm] Please misunderstand this, I beg you. [/sarcasm]


I'll be the first person to acknowledge that my questions are sharp, pointed, and designed to challenge. They are still questions that I am interested in the answer to. Sometimes, the answer is "your question is based on a faulty assumption", and then that is a good answer. Also, I am more interested in the Mormon culture as a whole, and have been interpreting your answers in that light. Perhaps I mistook your personal interpretations as such. If so, my apologies. For all I know, you think a male-only priesthood is archaic, and simply have not said so outright.

Let me spell it out for you, but I highly doubt you would be willing to go the distance with me to understand the why.
I think a male-only priesthood is enlightened, and in perfect order not only with what God wants for us, but what is for the best good of all people of the earth.
Do you really want the why? It will be the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but we will first have to track the rainbow from the beginning all the way to the other end to find the pot.


You described women as having a natural bond with God through creation (assumption on my part: birthing) that men don't have. You haven't described any sort of compensating closeness for men. In that light, if the Priesthood is composed of those who are further from God, why do the leaders of the congregation come from it? Why would you not want the leaders of your household and congregation to be the people closest to God?

faulty assumption on the further from God part.... should we start at the beginning of the rainbow? I'm willing if you really want to.


I'm not interested in winning nor in some ultimate truth. The goal of my challenge is reflection and change. I don't know if Hartsock was being facetious, but if he ever actually uses the phrase "Woman up!", or stops using phrases like "Man up", that's an accomplishment. If Stoked does decide to ask his wife (or ex-wife, other female acquaintance) about wether women understand men better than men understand women, and they have a conversation on the issue, that conversation will have ripples in Stoked's future conversations. Culture changes can't be dictated from above (at least, not easily), they have to be grown. Part of that is word choice. Our word choices have feedback on the our thoughts as well as the thoughts of others.

And why would you not view "Woman up!" to be just as offensive as "Man up"? Doesn't sound like progress or any sort of accomplishment to me.
Sounds like just changing direction on the same bad road.


I absolutely have an agenda, as described in my previous paragraph. Any time that seems unclear, just ask. However, it's quite possible to both have an agenda and want to gain accurate knowledge about what you are challenging. I would even argue that doing the first without doing the second is as foolish as any religious activity.

Your wording is yet again giving slights and digs to religious activity basically calling it all foolish. I wonder why I'm not feeling the sincerity from you.

To get to the point of what you are hinting at, there does need to be some sort of challenge of ideas to prove them out. I have verified what I believe, I have come to understand, I have challenged to see if it was true, and I have accepted what I have proven to myself to be true and try to live up to it to the best of my ability. I understand the cycle and the steps fairly well, and I can see when it appears that steps are being skipped. Nothing wrong with challenging ideas as long as it is part of the flow and the cycle of learning. To just sit and challenge without the other steps is just fruitless and a complete waste of time.
 
You described women as having a natural bond with God through creation (assumption on my part: birthing) that men don't have. You haven't described any sort of compensating closeness for men. In that light, if the Priesthood is composed of those who are further from God, why do the leaders of the congregation come from it? Why would you not want the leaders of your household and congregation to be the people closest to God?

Perhaps the "Priesthood" and these "leadership" positions are that compensation. Maybe that's why he chooses men to serve this way - to bring them closer.
 
1) We live in a misogynistic culture; I would find it difficult to believe that such an organization could so completely separate itself from the culture.

Thanks for the reply. Are you talking about American culture here? If so, in your discussions about LDS, are you just saying that the LDS church is as misogynistic as American culture in general? Or are you saying that, due to having e.g. an all-male priesthood, the LDS church is even more misogynistic than the surrounding culture? I had thought you were saying the latter, but perhaps you are just saying the former.
 
question

1) Do you think the term "benevolent sexism" means that there is no contempt or prejudice expressed by it for either sex?

Confused by your question. What does the "it" to which you refer that is expressing contempt or prejudice? Thanks for clarifying.
 
I absolutely have to disagree here. He can give an opinion about anything he wants about you or your thoughts, intentions, actions, opinions.... Just as you can him. Or you and I on one another.

Generally, "can" refers to an ability. Probably, you meant a right of some sort, that we couldn't/shouldn't pass a law on the subject. In that case, duh.

Try again. Think about what the phrase "proper subjects" meant, and why I made the specific effort to distinguish opinions as not proper versus speculations as potentially proper.
 
Generally, "can" refers to an ability. Probably, you meant a right of some sort, that we couldn't/shouldn't pass a law on the subject. In that case, duh.

Try again. Think about what the phrase "proper subjects" meant, and why I made the specific effort to distinguish opinions as not proper versus speculations as potentially proper.

"proper subjects" is your opinion of what is proper, nothing more. I disagree as that is my opinion. Again with your foolish word games.
 
And why in your flawed world of understanding words would your intentions not be proper subjects for my opinions? I say what I say, and it is my opinion that you are the way you are. My opinion is mine and can be about anything I want it to be about and on any subject I want it to be on.

Because in my flawed world of understanding, you are as interested in having a constructive dialogue as you claim, and I am not taking on the opinion that you are being deceitful or deliberately subversive of that effort. Since I'm not a telepath, when someone tells me their motivation, I take them at their even, even if I note their actions seem to be undermining their stated intent. I don't think so highly of myself that I can read others like open books. How about you?

Your statement is based an faulty assumptions and do not represent the meaning of what I said to you. Lets just assume you are a mortal person for a second here, and you are standing still and facing north. You can have multiple people close to you. You can have a person directly behind you that is equally close to you as a person standing to your right, and a person to your left, and a person in front of you. They are all equally close to you, and yet have a unique perspective of what you look like. Similar to this it is possible for multiple people to be close to God, and yet in different ways.

So, combining this with your earlier statement about women have a special connection to God, are you saying that men have a different special connection that women do not possess? Because otherwise, why isn't it that women, via their special connection, actually stand a little closer in your metaphor?

Let me spell it out for you, but I highly doubt you would be willing to go the distance with me to understand the why.
I think a male-only priesthood is enlightened, and in perfect order not only with what God wants for us, but what is for the best good of all people of the earth.
Do you really want the why? It will be the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but we will first have to track the rainbow from the beginning all the way to the other end to find the pot.

If you don't mind, I would like to travel that distance, a few sentences at time. That would allow me to focus on what the basis behind the argument is. I don't expect that at the end of the journey I'll see the pot as filled with gold, though, and I don't want you to undertake this thinking that's a likely possibility. It would be unfair to you.

faulty assumption on the further from God part....

Please go on. I'm listening.

And why would you not view "Woman up!" to be just as offensive as "Man up"? Doesn't sound like progress or any sort of accomplishment to me.
Sounds like just changing direction on the same bad road.

You are right that, in a sexism-free world, I would prefer a much more neutral "Grow up" or "Be a person". However, "Woman up!" at least states that it's just as good to be a fully realized woman as it is to be a fully realized man, and has the additional benefit of pushing against cultural inertia, so it's not an objectionable choice to me in our world.

Your wording is yet again giving slights and digs to religious activity basically calling it all foolish. I wonder why I'm not feeling the sincerity from you.

As I stated above, I'm not an acolyte or potential convert. My current position is that Mormonism is steeped in the same misogyny that infects almost every other religion (Wicca seems to be an exception), and for that matter, is being actively fought in atheist organizations. My understanding of this conversation is that people have been trying to convince me this is not true. I think Wicca is just as foolish and any other religion, but I am convinced it's not misogynistic, so the I don't see the two as connected. I'm open to Mormonism being not misogynistic (or perhaps misogynistic to a lesser degree) than other religions (despite whom they elect to the legislatures in Utah), and that would improve my opinion of the culture around it, but it's likely to have no impact at all on how believable I find its claims. Again, I don't want you to be deceived on that score. If that makes the conversation not worth having to you, I'd rather be honest about it and miss the conversation as opposed to the other option.

Nothing wrong with challenging ideas as long as it is part of the flow and the cycle of learning. To just sit and challenge without the other steps is just fruitless and a complete waste of time.

Fair enough.
 
Perhaps the "Priesthood" and these "leadership" positions are that compensation. Maybe that's why he chooses men to serve this way - to bring them closer.

That's a little like posting up your point guards to compensate for their lack of height and forcing centers to dribble the ball across the court, isn't it? 'You're better at us than this, so you can't do it'? Again, why not allow both?
 
Thanks for the reply. Are you talking about American culture here? If so, in your discussions about LDS, are you just saying that the LDS church is as misogynistic as American culture in general? Or are you saying that, due to having e.g. an all-male priesthood, the LDS church is even more misogynistic than the surrounding culture? I had thought you were saying the latter, but perhaps you are just saying the former.

The American culture is misogynistic generally, I see no evidence that the LDS are more so than any other relatively conservative religion (or for that matter, non-religious conservatives and moderates, in many cases).
 
Confused by your question. What does the "it" to which you refer that is expressing contempt or prejudice? Thanks for clarifying.

1) Do you think the use of the term "benevolent sexism" to describe an act of sexism means that there is no contempt or prejudice expressed by that particular expression of sexism for either sex?
 
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