Two predictions re Hayward and the future of the team.

[Sandy Braille]

Last I checked:

1. This thread is about Gordon Hayward.

2. Gordon Hayward is a better player than Alec Burks.

3. Giving Hayward more minutes and giving Burks more minutes are not mutually exclusive.


It's probably time for you to bow out of this thread before you make an even bigger *** of yourself. Maybe find a hobby more in line with your intellect. I hear huffing glue is fun.

1. Last I checked, this entire conversation is about Gordon Hayward not getting enough minutes by Ty to acclaim strength, and consistency.

2. You have yet to even properly address the entire point of this conversation, predictably. Of course, the reason you haven't, is because you have nothing to say-- the reason you have nothing to say, is because you know I'm right. Theres no way that Hayward hasn't gotten enough minutes to develop strength and consistency. And for whatever reason, you have this strange complex where you refuse to acknowledge that I'm right, and continue to veer off the conversation into a different direction to try and construct a straw men to tell me that I'm wrong.

3. I'm pretty sure the last three discussions we have had have been spearheaded by you misunderstanding my posts and going on random side-trangents that deviate from our discussion

4. Your second and third points are hilarious straw-men constructions of points that are in zero disagreement with any of my posts in this discussion, or my posting history on Jazzfanz in general.



I think its best if you find a way to spin off this discussion into a completely different direction. Clearly this present argument is not your forte, so you're better off constructing another straw men and finding something else to prove me wrong on. That, or result to emotional tirades, insults, and negreps.

Cheers.

 

[GVC]

Please go back and look at the portions of your posts that I responded to. I am under no obligation to engage you on other points relevant to discussions you're having with other posters. To be more precise, I was trying to engage you on the back-and-forth you started to have with NAOS, not eenie-meenie (whose post you responded to had some scary errors).

Here is the first post of yours that I responded to:

1) Would Hayward playing 10 more minutes in our current offense really have a huge impact on our offense?

2) This is not about minute sharing-- this is about Ty trying to find the right players to surround his main offensive weapon, Al Jefferson. When Hayward started off his shooting cold this season, he was moved to the bench. He found his touch again, and now he is being inserted into the starting lineup. Pretty simple stuff.

Maybe you can point out where consistency/strength is mentioned.

It absolutely is about minutes sharing, as I stated and supported. If it were about winning games, Hayward would have been given more minutes than Foye a hell of a lot earlier. End of story.

 

[GVC]

4. Your second and third points are hilarious straw-men constructions of points that are in zero disagreement with any of my posts in this discussion, or my posting history on Jazzfanz in general.

You should probably figure out what a straw man argument is before accusing someone of using one.

Out of curiosity, what was the point of bringing up Burks in the first place, if not to distract from the discussion about Gordo?

 

[Sandy Braille]

Please go back and look at the portions of your posts that I responded to. I have no obligation to engage you on other points relevant to discussions you're having with other posters.

Here is the first posts of yours that I responded to:



/Maybe you can point out where consistency/strength is mentioned.

Wait a second....

Maybe you missed it, but we've all been focusing on your first sentence in this thread. In case you forgot:

My first sentence is completely, 100% about consistency/strength. Since 'you guys are all focusing on it', I figured I would address it.


Yet another swing and miss by GVC.

It absolutely is about minutes sharing, as I stated and supported. If it were about winning games, Hayward would have been given more minutes than Foye a hell of a lot earlier. End of story.

Didn't we go on a tear after Hayward was sent to the bench??

Strike 2.

 

[Sandy Braille]

You should probably figure out what a straw man argument is before accusing someone of using one.

Out of curiosity, what was the point of bringing up Burks in the first place, if not to distract from the discussion about Gordo?

My point is that the complaints about Hayward not getting enough playing time for strength and consistency is beyond retarded. And NAOS telling me I was harsh was incorrect, his comparison to George's minute distribution is incorrect, and you trying to tell me that Hayward is better than Burks is laughable, because I never said anything close to the opposite.


I think thats 3 strikes.

 

[GVC]

Didn't we go on a tear after Hayward was sent to the bench??

No. The Jazz started playing better about a month later, when the schedule got easier (ignoring entirely that correlation does not imply causation, and that the starting unit was atrocious, even during the Jazz run). Seriously, you may want to actually confirm the **** you pull out of your *** before posting.

If you want to hold me accountable for points that I never responded to, that's your prerogative. Whatever helps you feel good about yourself, I suppose.

 

[GVC]

and you trying to tell me that Hayward is better than Burks is laughable, because I never said anything close to the opposite

Why did you even bring up Burks? I never claimed you thought Burks was better than Hayward. Please stick to the actual stuff I write, not what you want to read.

 

[GVC]

My point is that the complaints about Hayward not getting enough playing time for strength and consistency is beyond retarded.

That is not the only point you've made in this thread. The reasons you insist on ignoring the points NAOS and I have actually engaged you on are transparent.

 

[Sandy Braille]

No. The Jazz started playing better about a month later, when the schedule got easier (ignoring entirely that correlation does not imply causation, and that the starting unit was atrocious, even during the Jazz run). Seriously, you may want to actually confirm the **** you pull out of your *** before posting.

If you want to hold me accountable for points that I never responded to, that's your prerogative. Whatever helps you feel good about yourself, I suppose.

Keep spinning it baby!! To the window, to the wall!!!!

 

[Sandy Braille]

Why did you even bring up Burks? I never claimed you thought Burks was better than Hayward. Please stick to the actual stuff I write, not what you want to read.

I have already answered this like 3 times. Please go back and read. Thank you.

 

[Sandy Braille]

That is not the only point you've made in this thread. The reasons you insist on ignoring the points NAOS and I have actually engaged you on are transparent.

I'll let NAOS speak for himself, as he is capable to stay on topic and not generate nauseating amounts of straw men, and not rely on absurdities like giving us Millsap's 36per, PER, and Win share statistics to try and tell everyone he hasn't sucked dick

EDIT: Oooh, I forgot adjusted +/- as well.

 

[GVC]

It'll be nice when you get weeded out again. I have no trouble staying on topic, as I've shown in this thread (I've tried to stick to the discussion I entered about Hayward's minutes/role). You bring up Burks, earlier discussions with eenie-meenie that I was never a part of and Millsap. Good for you. For your sake, I hope you're just trolling.

Just look at your discussion with NAOS. He tried to enter a discussion about his minutes (ignoring the strength/consistency element of what eenie-meenie had argued). You responded by ignoring what he was saying and focusing on an irrelevant detail (relative to his main point) of his post (the reason Paul George is getting more minutes). You then went on to talk about other young players' minutes, again ignoring what NAOS was saying in the first place. When I entered, you decided to try to get me to respond to a point in a discussion you were having with someone else, then brought up Burks, then brought up Millsap.

Go back and take a look. Take a deep breath.

 

[Sandy Braille]

It'll be nice when you get weeded out again, so I can continue to make biased analytical assertions with no one here to question me. I have no trouble staying on topic *giggle*. You bring up Burks when you mention that Foye's minutes would be better allocated to Burks if we're worried about player development, and talk about the discussion of Eenie-Meenie's point when I myself said that everyone was focusing their conversation around you finding it funny that Hayward doesn't get enough minutes for development. Good for you.

I'd say this is a more accurate summary.

 

[b_line]

Wow. The main things I see that are seeming to get lost in the shuffle:

1. Hayward has become one of our best, if not our best player.

2. If Hayward averaged 10 more minutes a game, he would likely lead the team in scoring, he would get more experience thus gaining consistency, and our team would be a little better off record wise.

3. Hayward is a two way player, foye is not.

4. Playing Hayward more should not mean that burks gets less minutes.

If you can not see that Hayward is one of our top two guys on most nights, then you probably have not been watching the games. He is good, very good and closer to being as good as Paul George than a lot of us think. The main difference between the two is that the pacers have played George 1/3 more minutes than the jazz play Hayward. It should not be an argument about Hayward vs George though, but it always will be for some stupid reason. The main thing is that Ty is making a ridiculous choice by not playing Hayward more in order to give foye more minutes. Yeah, foye was on fire last night, but he is the model of inconsistency.

 

[GVC]

I have no interest in talking about Burks or Millsap in a thread about Gordo. Further, I don't think Gordo's strength has anything to do with his minutes. I'm interested in discussing whether the Jazz would have been better off (both this season and in the future) had Gordo been given more minutes this season. If you just want to throw a tantrum, I'll back out.

 

[TheSilencer1313]

Yeah, foye was on fire last night, but he is the model of inconsistency.

Now that's a little over the top.
Not defending Foye or anything, but I can think of a whole truckload of players that are more inconsistant than Foye.
Labeling him "the model of inconsistency" must be how CJ Miles goes to bed at night.

 

[b_line]

Now that's a little over the top.
Not defending Foye or anything, but I can think of a whole truckload of players that are more inconsistant than Foye.
Labeling him "the model of inconsistency" must be how CJ Miles goes to bed at night.

Yeah probably over the top, but a lot of people on here are acting like Hayward is super inconsistent. It's ridiculous that they can't see the other contributions Hayward gives every night and that he is a good scorer most nights. I would rather have 20 minutes of foye than any minutes of cj though.

 

[b_line]

I have no interest in talking about Burks or Millsap in a thread about Gordo. Further, I don't think Gordo's strength has anything to do with his minutes. I'm interested in discussing whether the Jazz would have been better off (both this season and in the future) had Gordo been given more minutes this season. If you just want to throw a tantrum, I'll back out.

I think if Hayward plays more we probably have one or two more wins right now. I think most of the WARP projections for Hayward this year are like 2.9 warp or so. I think the big thing though ups be the development and confidence he would have gained with another ten minutes per game

 

[Sandy Braille]

I have no interest in talking about Burks or Millsap in a thread about Gordo. Further, I don't think Gordo's strength has anything to do with his minutes.

There we go. I knew you could do it.

I'm interested in discussing whether the Jazz would have been better off (both this season and in the future) had Gordo been given more minutes this season. If you just want to throw a tantrum, I'll back out.

Okay. This is something I'll think about, and get back to you on with a more full-fledged post (I have an application to submit by midnight tonight). Especially the future aspect. As of now, I don't see how Gordon waiting on the perimeter while Mo struggles to inbound it to Al would help his future development.


As is, Gordon is fully deserving of playing a Luol Deng role on this team, given he has the endurance to do so. He has been playing nearly entire-halfs with good reason. He is maybe a consistent rebounding-skill away from being one of the most versatile players in franchise history. However, his skills greatly suit the bench, didn't suit the starters at first, and unfortunately has to share time with other players who shoot a higher volume of three pointers at a similar clip (Randy Foye).



Either way, some of my opinions are the following:

a) Gordon Hayward is getting more than enough minutes for development in terms of strength and consistency. I think we agree here

b) Gordon Hayward spending more time on the court with Al, Sap and Mo would have helped our team out this season, for wins: You agree with this, and I don't. I think our offense, in terms of versatility, hasn't improved nearly as much as I would have hoped form last seasons (with the starters). I think Hayward getting 30mpg as a 6th man (which would place him with essentially the top 5 6th men in the league) as opposed to 25, or 27, or whatever his mpg is, simply would not have as profound of an impact with our presently constituted starting unit, mainly due to how we organize it around Al Jefferson.

c) Gordon Hayward spending more time on the court with Al, Sap and Mo would have helped his development out in the future: I truly don't think so. I swear the only thing he could really gain expertise in, is practicing his inbound passes to Al, lol. I suppose I could be wrong though.

 

[GVC]

b) Gordon Hayward spending more time on the court with Al, Sap and Mo would have helped our team out this season, for wins: You agree with this, and I don't. I think our offense, in terms of versatility, hasn't improved nearly as much as I would have hoped form last seasons (with the starters). I think Hayward getting 30mpg as a 6th man (which would place him with essentially the top 5 6th men in the league) as opposed to 25, or 27, or whatever his mpg is, simply would not have as profound of an impact with our presently constituted starting unit, mainly due to how we organize it around Al Jefferson.

The game is more than halfcourt offense though. Gordo is the superior transition and defensive player (ignoring that he's also been a better spot-up 3pt shooter than Foye this season). Giving Foye 2 more minutes per game than Gordo for 3 months was a mistake.