Enes Kanter works out for the Jazz

[ema]

It's not feeling sorry for him. It's considering the conditions of the talentwise environment they are in while comparing them to others. Did they have Tim Grover and his equipment and his knowledge back then? No. What if we put the baby Hakeem in that time and let him got raised and become a basketball player in that context. Would he become the same Hakeem we know today? I don't think so.

What happened to don't put different guys into different eras principle? Though I've never done that before in this thread, I'd say Hakeem might also have been even better than Wilt, who knows? Right? Wasn't it also your point before?

I agree on considering the talentwise environment but it's the same reason that I can't praise his dominance. Really, I know it's not his fault and certainly not mine for that matter but it's the fact.

The real problem is, if there is any injustice while talking about Wilt and his career, it's really to the latter stars of the game, not to Wilt. Almost all of the praise for Wilt is based on his ridiculous stats. But Jordan also had really really jaw-dropping stats and he actually did that in another level of opposition, not even close.

Anyway, a 6-9ish Bill Russel for instance had seasons with 24+ rebounds per game and actually prevailed over Wilt for two seasons in rebounding race. Now you tell me, if we are to play hypothetical scenarios and games, what would the giant Shaq do in that kind of competition, even though he wouldn't have the modern basketball aids in that time?

 

[addictionary]

What happened to don't put different guys into different eras principle? Though I've never done that before in this thread, I'd say Hakeem might also have been even better than Wilt, who knows? Right? Wasn't it also your point before?

I agree on considering the talentwise environment but it's the same reason that I can't praise his dominance. Really, I know it's not his fault and certainly not mine for that matter but it's the fact.

The real problem is, if there is any injustice while talking about Wilt and his career, it's really to the latter stars of the game, not to Wilt. Almost all of the praise for Wilt is based on his ridiculous stats. But Jordan also had really really jaw-dropping stats and he actually did that in another level of opposition, not even close.

Anyway, a 6-9ish Bill Russel for instance had seasons with 24+ rebounds per game and actually prevailed over Wilt for two seasons in rebounding race. Now you tell me, if we are to play hypothetical scenarios and games, what would the giant Shaq do in that kind of competition, even though he wouldn't have the modern basketball aids in that time?

He would kill it.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Why no props for Russell?

He won a championship in 11 of his 13 years in the league. One of those years Russell got injured in the playoffs and that is why they lost, the other he was made the head coach as well as player when Red Aurbach retired.

His team often was the team to knock Chamberlain's out of the playoffs.

(1958-1959)Lakers head coach John Kundla praised Russell, stating, "We don't fear the Celtics without Bill Russell. Take him out and we can beat them ... He's the guy who whipped us psychologically."

(said West as a teammate of Chamberlain)-Hall-of-Fame Lakers guard Jerry West stated, "If I had a choice of any basketball player in the league, my No.1 choice has to be Bill Russell. Bill Russell never ceases to amaze me."

He beat Chamberlain in the Finals 2 out of the 3 times they met in the finals instead of somewhere else, where he beat him every time.

Chamberlain won 2 Championships, but only one of them where he had to go through Russell. He also lost to the Knicks twice in the finals.

Russell averaged 22.5 rebounds per game during his career, while Chamberlain averaged 22.9.
Both averaged 4.3 and 4.4 assists per game.

Chamberlain did average double the points at 30 to Russell's 15, and he also shot a much better percentage than Russell.

While Chamberlain is impressive, Russell won... period.

 

[addictionary]

What happened to don't put different guys into different eras principle? Though I've never done that before in this thread, I'd say Hakeem might also have been even better than Wilt, who knows? Right? Wasn't it also your point before?

I agree on considering the talentwise environment but it's the same reason that I can't praise his dominance. Really, I know it's not his fault and certainly not mine for that matter but it's the fact.

The real problem is, if there is any injustice while talking about Wilt and his career, it's really to the latter stars of the game, not to Wilt. Almost all of the praise for Wilt is based on his ridiculous stats. But Jordan also had really really jaw-dropping stats and he actually did that in another level of opposition, not even close.

Anyway, a 6-9ish Bill Russel for instance had seasons with 24+ rebounds per game and actually prevailed over Wilt for two seasons in rebounding race. Now you tell me, if we are to play hypothetical scenarios and games, what would the giant Shaq do in that kind of competition, even though he wouldn't have the modern basketball aids in that time?

Nothing happened man I'm trying to make a point here I'm not comparing Hakeem and Wilt. I'm trying to point out the importance of the context effect that you and I both share as I know now.

 

[ema]

Why no props for Russell?

He won a championship in 11 of his 13 years in the league. One of those years Russell got injured in the playoffs and that is why they lost, the other he was made the head coach as well as player when Red Aurbach retired.

His team often was the team to knock Chamberlain's out of the playoffs.




He beat Chamberlain in the Finals 2 out of the 3 times they met in the finals instead of somewhere else, where he beat him every time.

Chamberlain won 2 Championships, but only one of them where he had to go through Russell. He also lost to the Knicks twice in the finals.

Russell averaged 22.5 rebounds per game during his career, while Chamberlain averaged 22.9.
Both averaged 4.3 and 4.4 assists per game.

Chamberlain did average double the points at 30 to Russell's 15, and he also shot a much better percentage than Russell.

While Chamberlain is impressive, Russell won... period.

His scoring stats don't amaze people.

 

[MVP]

Why no props for Russell?

He won a championship in 11 of his 13 years in the league. One of those years Russell got injured in the playoffs and that is why they lost, the other he was made the head coach as well as player when Red Aurbach retired.

His team often was the team to knock Chamberlain's out of the playoffs.

He beat Chamberlain in the Finals 2 out of the 3 times they met in the finals instead of somewhere else, where he beat him every time.

Chamberlain won 2 Championships, but only one of them where he had to go through Russell. He also lost to the Knicks twice in the finals.

Russell averaged 22.5 rebounds per game during his career, while Chamberlain averaged 22.9.
Both averaged 4.3 and 4.4 assists per game.

Chamberlain did average double the points at 30 to Russell's 15, and he also shot a much better percentage than Russell.

While Chamberlain is impressive, Russell won... period.

Great points but we need to keep in mind their respective teams and coaching. Russel had much, much better teammates and coach. Switch their teams and Wilt would have way more then 2 rings and Russell way less then his 9 IMHO.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Great points but we need to keep in mind their respective teams and coaching. Russel had much, much better teammates and coach. Switch their teams and Wilt would have way more then 2 rings and Russell way less then his 9 IMHO.

Not quite bro. Chamberlain was on some pretty good teams, and in some of those series he lost his team was actually favored to beat the Celtics. Contrary to popular belief Chamberlain did not play with crappy players or a crappy team.

Do these names sound familiar? Hal Greer, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich?

 

[LogGrad98]

Not quite bro. Chamberlain was on some pretty good teams, and in some of those series he lost his team was actually favored to beat the Celtics. Contrary to popular belief Chamberlain did not play with crappy players or a crappy team.

Do these names sound familiar? Hal Greer, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich?

Amateurs, obviously. No more than Jr. High Schoolers from the 90's at best.

 

[Myjazz]

Chamberlain was amazing. He is the only player to score 100 points in a single NBA game or average more than 40 and 50 points in a season. He also won seven scoring, nine field goal percentage, and eleven rebounding titles, and once even led the league in assists. He is the only player in NBA history to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game in a season, a feat he accomplished nine times. He is also the only player to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game over the entire course of his NBA career.

If that doesn't make him simply awesome in any era you guys are effing crazy!!! I could care less about any argument put out there. This dude would DOMINATE in any era. PERIOD. Not only that but he was as big as Shaq. Dude was 7"1 and 275-300 lbs during his career. But way more athletic. Dude ran like a deer. If you don't believe that then your just jealous that he plowed 20000 smoken hot women while DOMINATING everything put in his path!!!!

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Chamberlain was amazing. He is the only player to score 100 points in a single NBA game or average more than 40 and 50 points in a season. He also won seven scoring, nine field goal percentage, and eleven rebounding titles, and once even led the league in assists. He is the only player in NBA history to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game in a season, a feat he accomplished nine times. He is also the only player to average at least 30 points and 20 rebounds per game over the entire course of his NBA career.

If that doesn't make him simply awesome in any era you guys are effing crazy!!! I could care less about any argument put out there. This dude would DOMINATE in any era. PERIOD. If you don't believe that then your just jealous that he plowed 20000 smoken hot women while DOMINATING everything put in his path!!!!

I worked with Wilt at a charity event in 1991. He hit on every mildly cute woman (and some not so cute) who came within range, and he had sex with several including two who I knew well. I'm not exaggerating. Now that's dominance.

 

[Myjazz]

Right on brother!!

 

[MVP]

Not quite bro. Chamberlain was on some pretty good teams, and in some of those series he lost his team was actually favored to beat the Celtics. Contrary to popular belief Chamberlain did not play with crappy players or a crappy team.

Do these names sound familiar? Hal Greer, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich?

No arguing that in some teams he had decent support but again IMHO overall Russell had better ( and lets not forget coach!). Which series you are referring to where Wilt's team was favored? If it is 1969 we need to remember that he got injured and did not play last six minutes of game 7 which may or may not have been deciding factor...Some blamed him, some blamed coach... anyway, good discussion.