LDS general conference - Fall 2013

[♪alt13]

Isn't Mormonism based on the Book of Mormon rather than being biblically based? So even though it may follow many of the same precepts as Christianity, wouldn't it have to be based on the Bible to be considered a Christian denomination?

Abrahamic Religions
Judaism,Christian(all denominations including mormons), Islam, and probably a few more that don't fit tightly into these categories

Christians

noun: Christian; plural noun: Christians

1.
a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings

As far as Mormons not being Christian because they don't believe the Bible tells the whole story, I would like to point out a few verses from the bible that no christian I have ever met subscribes to.

"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

According to Mathew Jesus approves of this^ I know not a single Christian that believes this yet it is in the Bible. All Christians pick & choose/interpret the Bible just as Mormons do.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.(Mathew 5:17-5:19)

 

[moevillini]

I have no donkey in this race. If the CJCLDS considers itself to be a Christian denomination, that's fine with me - or if it wants to call itself a sect or anything else, I imagine it's free to categorize itself by whatever criteria it chooses. It's not as if there's a dues paying club for Christian denominations. Or maybe there is, I honestly don't know.

 

[colton]

Sociologists have estimated that the self identifying membership is about 5 million.
https://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120131

Who ARE these sociologists, though? That's what my question was--what are your sources. That news article just quotes anonymous people for that 5 million source. (The source that is named in that article agreed with my U.S. estimate of 50% activity.)

Check Slide four of this powerpoint for how big this exaggeration is: https://www.docstoc.com/docs/157705726/Mormon-Doctrine---ITC-Renewable

I think the rate is closer to 30% and shrinking of whatever the church is reporting.

That powerpoint cites cumorah.com, the same site I ran across earlier in this thread. But no one there seems to be a qualified sociologist. https://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=about_us. As near as I can tell, the figure that everyone quotes is just an estimate they made with no real evidence.

If you count only active members, there is a strong argument that church membership peaked some time ago, is aging demographically, and is an institution on the decline numerically.

I don't buy that at all. Regardless of how good/bad the membership data is, the number of church congregations should be a reliable measure of #active members because all wards across the church have pretty much the same number of people, and the number of active people per ward has remained pretty constant my entire lifetime because it comes from the church organization itself. Numbers and types of callings, etc. (Branches are more variable, of course.) Same thing with stakes--the number of active members per stake has remained essentially a constant my entire lifetime. I don't have the #congregations and #stakes vs. year data at my fingertips, but I'm sure I can get it (it's announced each year at the spring general conference). And if I were a betting man I'd put a LOT of money on a wager that those two numbers have consistently increased every year. Maybe I'll put that info together in a day or two.

 

[Stifle Tower]

I don't buy that at all. Regardless of how good/bad the membership data is, the number of church congregations should be a reliable measure of #active members because all wards across the church have pretty much the same number of people, and the number of active people per ward has remained pretty constant my entire lifetime because it comes from the church organization itself. Numbers and types of callings, etc. (Branches are more variable, of course.) Same thing with stakes--the number of active members per stake has remained essentially a constant my entire lifetime. I don't have the #congregations and #stakes vs. year data at my fingertips, but I'm sure I can get it (it's announced each year at the spring general conference). And if I were a betting man I'd put a LOT of money on a wager that those two numbers have consistently increased every year. Maybe I'll put that info together in a day or two.

Agree. When a ward becomes too large, the church does a split and forms another ward. Likewise, there is also consolidation, particularly in cities that were once booming with children but then age. That very thing happened where I grew up. The LDS church merged stakes because of declining attendance: not enough families with children moving in to replace all those who had grown up and moved on. Sure, there can be some lag.. The ward I attend isn't nearly as large as it used to be (thank the mortgage crisis for that one). On the other hand, most of the large families that moved are still active, but just in lower COL areas (i.e. smaller homes or apartments). The number of wards and stakes is probably a good indication of the growth (or non-growth) of the LDS Church.

 

[♪alt13]

I don't buy that at all. Regardless of how good/bad the membership data is, the number of church congregations should be a reliable measure of #active members because all wards across the church have pretty much the same number of people, and the number of active people per ward has remained pretty constant my entire lifetime because it comes from the church organization itself. Numbers and types of callings, etc. (Branches are more variable, of course.) Same thing with stakes--the number of active members per stake has remained essentially a constant my entire lifetime. I don't have the #congregations and #stakes vs. year data at my fingertips, but I'm sure I can get it (it's announced each year at the spring general conference). And if I were a betting man I'd put a LOT of money on a wager that those two numbers have consistently increased every year. Maybe I'll put that info together in a day or two.

I think the mormon population is often quoted way too high(including nonactive). I'm pretty sure they count a lot of people like myself that were baptised as children but I have never considered myself Mormon.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I know they're counting me because various bishops and counselors come by frequently to tell me that I'm on their roles and they want to see how I'm doing. I tell them I'm fine and please take me off your roles because I'm not a fan of organized religion. They have told me on several occasions that they will but apparently they don't know how. The last time I went to a Mormon church meeting (other than a sprinkling of occasions to support a family member who was leaving on a mission, getting baptized or something like that) was well over 30 years ago. I have lived in at least 10 different homes in three states and one province of Canada since that time yet they still keep finding me. Clearly someone is watching over me, God bless them.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Yes.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Or... no. Yeah.

 

[Stoked]

Islam also believes the Bible to be the word of God with similar qualifiers....
that doesn't make it a Christian faith

it also believes the Torah is the word of God, but that doesn't make it a Jewish faith - -
and most Jews believe the Old Testament portion of the Bible...

I think most monotheistic religions accept that the Bible to some extent is the word of God...
Someone can self-identify however they choose, that doesn't mean that others will see them the same way as they see themselves.

I guess this all depends on how you define Christian. For me it is a religion centered around the belief in Jesus Christ, that he is the son of God and that he died for our sins.

If so than the LDS denomination (now you can shut up Dala) is clearly Christian.

 

[Stoked]

I think the mormon population is often quoted way too high(including nonactive). I'm pretty sure they count a lot of people like myself that were baptised as children but I have never considered myself Mormon.

Yes they do.

 

[colton]

I know they're counting me because various bishops and counselors come by frequently to tell me that I'm on their roles and they want to see how I'm doing. I tell them I'm fine and please take me off your roles because I'm not a fan of organized religion. They have told me on several occasions that they will but apparently they don't know how. The last time I went to a Mormon church meeting (other than a sprinkling of occasions to support a family member who was leaving on a mission, getting baptized or something like that) was well over 30 years ago. I have lived in at least 10 different homes in three states and one province of Canada since that time yet they still keep finding me. Clearly someone is watching over me, God bless them.

If you really want to be removed from the church records, I believe all you have to do is notify your local bishop by writing. I'm not sure why they wouldn't have told you that on the phone.

 

[moevillini]

Yes.

Or... no. Yeah.

Are YOU a GOD?


(one of the best movie lines EVER!!!!)




OK, sorry about that, but I had to get that out of my system.


So, just to clarify - - is the point of all this back and forth discussion about "denomination vs. sect vs. Christianity vs. major religion" more related to how LDS sees itself or how the rest of the world sees it?



And another clarification - - are the words "religion" and "faith" interchangeable when discussing something like the "Mormon faith" or the "Mormon religion" or is one more the belief system and one more the structural operating system?