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LDS general conference - Fall 2013

Stoked said:
As I mentioned before Kicky using those that identify as Mormon is perhaps the best way.

But my point still stands. We are witnessing the birth of a major world wide religion.
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As opposed to what? Was Mormonism considered a sect or something? I always figured that it was a denomination-- and I don't really see the significance of referring to it as a religion as opposed to a denomination.
 
Bronco70 said:
Depends on who you ask. Still considered a cult by many.
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I wouldn't say that that is a very accurate gauge.

According to Howard P. Becker (dude who first started using the word 'cult' in terms of sociology), it definitely doesn't hold any water. I wouldn't describe mormonism as a "small religious group lacking in structure-- and promoting the private nature of personal beliefs".

I'd say that it is a denominational sect at worst-- and its on track to becoming a denomination (i.e. completely on par with Presbyterians, Catholicism, etc.-- which many could argue that it's already there)
 
Sirkickyass said:
For you and colton as well: Those numbers are all wrong. The LDS church systematically over reports growth and underreports loss.

Let's look at membership in Brazil. In 2010 the church claimed 1,138,740 members in Brazil. But in the 2010 census only 225,695 Brazilians claimed they were LDS. 913,014 members are missing! What gives?

https://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/54497395-180/church-census-lds-reported.html.csp

The LDS church is very "optimistic" in figuring official membership numbers. It assumes 100% retention rates. Once you are counted as a member you are a member for life. And judging by the low death rates, members don't die as often as the rest of the population.

That doesn't mean the church doesn't know how many members are showing up to church, they are meticulous record keepers. Head counts are performed and quarterly reports are made. But these actual numbers are not reported to the public. They are a secret.

Let's take the numbers reported on April 6, 2013. Official membership was reported up by 341,127 to 14,782,473. The "increase in the children of record" is 122,273 and new converts are 272,330. (Mormon children are typically baptized at age 8, so a new "child of record" is a child of a member or a convert that hasn't been baptized yet.)

So are there any subtractions? The gross increase is 122,273 + 272,330 = 394,603. Difference between net and gross increase is 394,603 - 341,127 = 53,476. Even if we assume the entire subtraction is due to death, the death rate is at MOST 3.7 deaths per 1000. Compare that to the 8.4 and 8.3 deaths per 1000 for the U.S. and World respectively.

https://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/demographics_profile.html

This has been going on for decades, and the LDS assumptions about its own death rates lead to a constantly increasing gap between the "real" number and the reported number even if we assumed retention rates were truly close to 100% as the church treats all former members that haven't officially resigned membership as current members.

Reality is retention rates will never be 100%. Only a fraction of these increases are keepers. Some older studies suggest 34% of the members born in the church will leave, while only 25% - 50% of the converts will stay for the first year. 80% of members will leave the church for at least 1 year.

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Vital_Statistics

Only the deaths of active members are reported by wards and branches to church headquarters. The church doesn't reveal numbers for resignations or excommunications.

The result is that the church over reports its gains and under reports its losses year after year. Over time the errors keep accumulating.

Sociologists have estimated that the self identifying membership is about 5 million. At 5 million the LDS church doesn't even rank with Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists in numbers (Both of those churches use participation/attendance to determine their numbers.)

https://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120131

If you count only active members, there is a strong argument that church membership peaked some time ago, is aging demographically, and is an institution on the decline numerically.

Check Slide four of this powerpoint for how big this exaggeration is: https://www.docstoc.com/docs/157705726/Mormon-Doctrine---ITC-Renewable

I think the rate is closer to 30% and shrinking of whatever the church is reporting.
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Superb post. I've learned lots about this in the sociology courses that I've done-- and it's all very very true.
 
dalamon said:
I wouldn't say that that is a very accurate gauge.

According to Howard P. Becker (dude who first started using the word 'cult' in terms of sociology), it definitely doesn't hold any water. I wouldn't describe mormonism as a "small religious group lacking in structure-- and promoting the private nature of personal beliefs".

I'd say that it is a denominational sect at worst-- and its on track to becoming a denomination (i.e. completely on par with Presbyterians, Catholicism, etc.-- which many could argue that it's already there)
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Yeah, but my point was that there are still many who consider it to be, right or wrong. Google "mormon cult". You'll find plenty who are eager to tell you why the LDS church is a cult.
 
Bronco70 said:
Yeah, but my point was that there are still many who consider it to be, right or wrong. Google "mormon cult". You'll find plenty who are eager to tell you why the LDS church is a cult.
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True. But google "muslim terrorism" and you'll see even more people pigeon-holing > 1 billion people, as opposed to ~15 million according to the LDS church.

My point is that it is super prevalent-- but luckily, it growingly becomes less and less of an obstacle. Of course we shouldn't become complacent-- but lets appreciate the fact that America nearly elected a Mormon into power (and he was the candidate from the side that is more likely to be anti-Mormon, or 'anti-cult').

My initial question is that why should it be referred to as a 'religion' as opposed to a denomination. I ask this because I've heard it referred to as a 'religion' several times. I feel like it would be more advantageous to try and consider Mormonism a denomination of christianity-- but maybe the leaders of the LDS church think otherwise. I don't know nearly enough about the subject.
 
Stoked said:
As I mentioned before Kicky using those that identify as Mormon is perhaps the best way.

But my point still stands. We are witnessing the birth of a major world wide religion.
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Someone got a little pollyanna off of the Conference kool-aid.
 
dalamon said:
As opposed to what? Was Mormonism considered a sect or something? I always figured that it was a denomination-- and I don't really see the significance of referring to it as a religion as opposed to a denomination.
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In the 90s while I lived in the south it was widely considered a cult. Until more modern times it was "lawful" to kill Mormons in Missouri.
 
dalamon said:
True. But google "muslim terrorism" and you'll see even more people pigeon-holing > 1 billion people, as opposed to ~15 million according to the LDS church.

My point is that it is super prevalent-- but luckily, it growingly becomes less and less of an obstacle. Of course we shouldn't become complacent-- but lets appreciate the fact that America nearly elected a Mormon into power (and he was the candidate from the side that is more likely to be anti-Mormon, or 'anti-cult').

My initial question is that why should it be referred to as a 'religion' as opposed to a denomination. I ask this because I've heard it referred to as a 'religion' several times. I feel like it would be more advantageous to try and consider Mormonism a denomination of christianity-- but maybe the leaders of the LDS church think otherwise. I don't know nearly enough about the subject.
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I say religion in the same sense I would use it to say that Catholicism is a major religion. Catholics are Christians.
 
Stoked said:
Didn't watch it at all and I am severely inactive. Nice try?
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Alright then.

Seems like a pretty grandiose statement, is all I'm saying. When did the birth occur? Who is the "we" that is playing witness? .002% of the world's population represents a major world wide religion? and that's if we accept the 12 million figure.
 
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