D
Deleted member 848
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In that case, then what do you call Christianity?
LDS general conference - Fall 2013
- Thread starter colton
- Start date
In that case, then what do you call Christianity?
I get the point you are making. Question for you. Does a denomination at some point enter the discussion as a major religion due to its size and influence?
Isn't Mormonism based on the Book of Mormon rather than being biblically based? So even though it may follow many of the same precepts as Christianity, wouldn't it have to be based on the Bible to be considered a Christian denomination?
D
Deleted member 848
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No, because to me, religions are umbrella terms that encompass various denominations. Christianity. Islam. Judaism. Buddhism. Things like that.
I think entering the conversation as a denomination alone is quite lofty respect, and praise. It makes you on par with churches that have been established since shortly after the life and death of Jesus, for example. I think it's a mistake to consider Mormonism a 'religion', because it infers separation from Christianity. But if that's what they want, they know better than £¥£.
D
Deleted member 848
Guest
See, now in this case, then it would make sense to refer Mormonism as it's own religion, among its practicers. But it seems a bit willy-Nilly to be on the fence over this sort of thing.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
Nope. It's based on both, Moe. Err... I mean doe.
Moe, I'm adding a link to what is called the 13 articles of faith. They are just a list of 13 statements that outline the beliefs of people in the LDS Church. You can read them how they are or delve into what that means with each of them.
One of them states
To get a little more into detail we believe that the Book of Mormon contains writings and teachings of prophets and Christ. We also believe the bible to contain writings and teachings of prophets and Christ. It is recognized that the Bible has gone through translations and changes through time so basically recognize there may be things missing or changed in the Bible as we see it today compared to when it was first written. We also believe the Bible talks about both books and references them as the stick of Judah (Bible), and stick of Joseph (Book of Mormon) as the descendants of Joseph are those who traveled to the American continent and kept records there.
Just an fyi/cliff notes version
https://mormon.org/beliefs/articles-of-faith
Islam also believes the Bible to be the word of God with similar qualifiers....
that doesn't make it a Christian faith
it also believes the Torah is the word of God, but that doesn't make it a Jewish faith - -
and most Jews believe the Old Testament portion of the Bible...
I think most monotheistic religions accept that the Bible to some extent is the word of God...
Someone can self-identify however they choose, that doesn't mean that others will see them the same way as they see themselves.
that doesn't make it a Christian faith
it also believes the Torah is the word of God, but that doesn't make it a Jewish faith - -
and most Jews believe the Old Testament portion of the Bible...
I think most monotheistic religions accept that the Bible to some extent is the word of God...
Someone can self-identify however they choose, that doesn't mean that others will see them the same way as they see themselves.
The difference is, Jesus Christ is the central figure of LDS doctrine.
edit: I know a lot of peeps like to argue that Joseph Smith is, and although he is important, historically speaking, to the LDS faith, he isn't worshipped. Nobody prays to or in the name of Joseph Smith.
If my contention is that active membership may have peaked and be on the decline then, no, your point does not still stand.
I think we also have to define what constitutes a "major world wide religion." Do you have to hit 1% of the world pop to qualify? Because even the pie in the sky numbers are not even close to that level.
To be perfectly fair and honest, most Christian religions believe the Bible with similar qualifiers whether they say it in this manner or not. There are plenty of Christian denominations or sects or whatever they are referred to that will not use certain translations of the Bible. Why is that if the Bible is the Bible, and they are considered to be Christians still?
You are correct though, people will identify the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" however they want and claim we are not Christians, and they can go ahead and do that... but a rose by any other name is still the same.
I think to become a worldwide church we have to have at least one criminal lawyer non member church historian to act as devil's advocate for topics some people may think are pretty cool. You can't be a worldwide church without someone like that to try to punch holes in things. I'm pretty sure we've arrived!
♪alt13
Well-Known Member
Abrahamic Religions
Judaism,Christian(all denominations including mormons), Islam, and probably a few more that don't fit tightly into these categories
Christians
noun: Christian; plural noun: Christians
1.
a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings
As far as Mormons not being Christian because they don't believe the Bible tells the whole story, I would like to point out a few verses from the bible that no christian I have ever met subscribes to.
"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)
According to Mathew Jesus approves of this^ I know not a single Christian that believes this yet it is in the Bible. All Christians pick & choose/interpret the Bible just as Mormons do.
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.(Mathew 5:17-5:19)
I have no donkey in this race. If the CJCLDS considers itself to be a Christian denomination, that's fine with me - or if it wants to call itself a sect or anything else, I imagine it's free to categorize itself by whatever criteria it chooses. It's not as if there's a dues paying club for Christian denominations. Or maybe there is, I honestly don't know.
Who ARE these sociologists, though? That's what my question was--what are your sources. That news article just quotes anonymous people for that 5 million source. (The source that is named in that article agreed with my U.S. estimate of 50% activity.)
That powerpoint cites cumorah.com, the same site I ran across earlier in this thread. But no one there seems to be a qualified sociologist. https://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=about_us. As near as I can tell, the figure that everyone quotes is just an estimate they made with no real evidence.
I don't buy that at all. Regardless of how good/bad the membership data is, the number of church congregations should be a reliable measure of #active members because all wards across the church have pretty much the same number of people, and the number of active people per ward has remained pretty constant my entire lifetime because it comes from the church organization itself. Numbers and types of callings, etc. (Branches are more variable, of course.) Same thing with stakes--the number of active members per stake has remained essentially a constant my entire lifetime. I don't have the #congregations and #stakes vs. year data at my fingertips, but I'm sure I can get it (it's announced each year at the spring general conference). And if I were a betting man I'd put a LOT of money on a wager that those two numbers have consistently increased every year. Maybe I'll put that info together in a day or two.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Agree. When a ward becomes too large, the church does a split and forms another ward. Likewise, there is also consolidation, particularly in cities that were once booming with children but then age. That very thing happened where I grew up. The LDS church merged stakes because of declining attendance: not enough families with children moving in to replace all those who had grown up and moved on. Sure, there can be some lag.. The ward I attend isn't nearly as large as it used to be (thank the mortgage crisis for that one). On the other hand, most of the large families that moved are still active, but just in lower COL areas (i.e. smaller homes or apartments). The number of wards and stakes is probably a good indication of the growth (or non-growth) of the LDS Church.
♪alt13
Well-Known Member
I think the mormon population is often quoted way too high(including nonactive). I'm pretty sure they count a lot of people like myself that were baptised as children but I have never considered myself Mormon.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
I know they're counting me because various bishops and counselors come by frequently to tell me that I'm on their roles and they want to see how I'm doing. I tell them I'm fine and please take me off your roles because I'm not a fan of organized religion. They have told me on several occasions that they will but apparently they don't know how. The last time I went to a Mormon church meeting (other than a sprinkling of occasions to support a family member who was leaving on a mission, getting baptized or something like that) was well over 30 years ago. I have lived in at least 10 different homes in three states and one province of Canada since that time yet they still keep finding me. Clearly someone is watching over me, God bless them.
