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LDS general conference - Fall 2013

Absolutely. Why are Jazz fans happy when their team wins games? It means they are being successful. Same thing.
If you really do feel this way the same logic would also dictate that people who left the church are going to be motivated to convince more people to leave the church because it justifies their decisions.

BTW, I'd be interested to see some charting on the growth rate of the group identified as "Former Mormons." Based on my experiences that is one population that really does seem to be multiplying exponentially.
 
By the way, I just finished inputting the membership and congregation data for the past 30 years into a spreadsheet, and that's what it looks like to me. Around 1999 there was a substantial change in the real growth rate (as measured by # of stakes and # of congregations). Prior to that the growth rate was about 3-4%. After that, the rate has been about 1-1.5%. The growth is still exponential, though.

The reported growth rate of membership is consistently larger than that, though, so that's pretty good evidence that the activity rate has been consistently decreasing, as sirkicky said (and perhaps you as well).

I've got to run now, but I should be able to post the actual numbers and charts tomorrow for those who are interested.

I've decided to continue this in a new thread, please see here if you are interested:
https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?19964-LDS-church-membership-statistics
 
So all of the revelations were pointing to Christ and his church and the nature of God? Where's the part where Joseph Smith tells people to worship him?

Is John the Beloved worshiped because he wrote so much of the Bible?

I never, ever said that Mormons worship JS. I'm a bit baffled as to how you've come to that conclusion. As a nearly life-long member of the LDS Church, I can say unequivocally that Mormons DO NOT worship JS and that Mormons ARE Christians.

I do, think, however that relegating JS to merely a historical figure, albeit an important one, as Bronco70 has done is a grossly inaccurate portrayal of how Mormons view JS. He is literally 'second to Jesus Christ' in Mormon doctrine/belief, and no one is even close AND he is the source of many, if not most, core doctrines held by the LDS Church. AND I do think honestly that Mormon veneration for JS long ago crossed the line from veneration to 'personality cult' (not implying that the LDS Church is a cult).
 
It was not a Christmas display. It was a display put up around Christmastime, because that's when Joseph Smith was born.



I am very confident in the opposite. There's no way a reasonable outsider would interpret this as anything close to worship of Joseph Smith. In fact, when I googled it earlier today I saw no evidence that any reasonable outsiders HAD made that mistake. All I saw were anti-Mormon sites making fun of it.

Do YOU have any evidence that even as many as a single reasonable outsider incorrectly interpreted the display??

We'll agree to disagree on this. It was not just a coincidence that BYU chose to put up this type of display to honor JS's birth. The parallels to a nativity scene are just to obvious to ignore.

I have as much evidence as you do that any reasonable outsider didn't incorrectly interpret this display. Similar to you, I imagine, I've better things to do than to conduct surveys on how non-LDS might view this display. I am making an inference based on my experiences, understanding of how people at large tend to view Mormonism, and undoubtedly filtered somewhat through my biases. Same as you.

That said, I'd be willing to bet sizable money that a non-trivial number of reasonable outsiders would find this display inappropriate given the context.
 
I'm not confusing that, but it seems like you were.

So, do you admit that the church is still growing, possibly even with an exponential growth rate--just that the exponent itself has decreased a bit? I have no problem with that claim, it seems very reasonable. Or am I misunderstanding you again?

I'm not confusing anything (unless I'm confused about what I'm confused about :)). Yesp I admit that the Church is still growing, I don't believe I've ever said anything to the contrary. My larger point is that the Church's claims about its actual growth rate are overstated--it is not growing nearly as fast as members are led to believe. Certainly not at the rate that would fulfill any prophecy about a stone cut without hand filling the earth, unless we agree than .002 of the world's population constitutes 'filling the earth.' Of course, since the Church is not transparent about its membership attrition rate, we are left to do a lot of guess work and inferences based on other data.

Then there's the matter of absolute vs. relative growth. I don't have the numbers, but it would be of interest to know to what extent its net growth rate is keeping up with the overall population growth rate. It might actually be growing in absolute terms but falling behind in relative terms. Or it might not.
 
By the way, I just finished inputting the membership and congregation data for the past 30 years into a spreadsheet, and that's what it looks like to me. Around 1999 there was a substantial change in the real growth rate (as measured by # of stakes and # of congregations). Prior to that the growth rate was about 3-4%. After that, the rate has been about 1-1.5%. The growth is still exponential, though.

The reported growth rate of membership is consistently larger than that, though, so that's pretty good evidence that the activity rate has been consistently decreasing, as sirkicky said (and perhaps you as well).

I've got to run now, but I should be able to post the actual numbers and charts tomorrow for those who are interested.

Thanks. That certainly seems consistent with what I've read/observed.

Just to be clear on what I'm saying:

1. Growth rates reported by LDS Church are overstated
2. Net growth rates are slowing at the margin (slope of curve flattening out)--I am assuming this is a result of poor membership retention after baptism and accelerating departure rates among rank and file members due, in large part, to greater availability of information and possibly also due to Church's lagging position on social issues, among others. (My oldest daughter, for example, has ceased her activity over Church's stance on women's issues and gay rights--not that I would generalize from sample set of 1.)
3. Growth rates and share of LDS in world population fall far, far short of any prophecy or belief that the LDS Church is destined to 'fill the earth' in any sense.
 
Then there's the matter of absolute vs. relative growth. I don't have the numbers, but it would be of interest to know to what extent its net growth rate is keeping up with the overall population growth rate. It might actually be growing in absolute terms but falling behind in relative terms. Or it might not.

This Wikipedia page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_growth, says that "In 2009, the estimated annual growth rate was 1.1%". Interestingly enough, 1.1% is exactly what I deduced for the church's growth rate since 1999, see this thread: https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?19964-LDS-church-membership-statistics. So I guess the church is not falling behind, but not getting ahead either.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
My larger point is that the Church's claims about its actual growth rate are overstated--it is not growing nearly as fast as members are led to believe.

How fast are they being led to believe it's growing? I get that some members occasionally comment about things like "fastest growing religion" (and to be honest, how often do we hear this.. I know it's been quite some time that I can't even recall the last time I heard it), but what from the top down is conveying these ideas that are being purported?
 
Just to be clear on what I'm saying:

1. Growth rates reported by LDS Church are overstated
2. Net growth rates are slowing at the margin (slope of curve flattening out)--I am assuming this is a result of poor membership retention after baptism and accelerating departure rates among rank and file members due, in large part, to greater availability of information and possibly also due to Church's lagging position on social issues, among others. (My oldest daughter, for example, has ceased her activity over Church's stance on women's issues and gay rights--not that I would generalize from sample set of 1.)
3. Growth rates and share of LDS in world population fall far, far short of any prophecy or belief that the LDS Church is destined to 'fill the earth' in any sense.

I can agree with #1 and #2. On the other hand, #3 is purely subjective, and also depends on how one interprets scripture--so I won't comment on it since I'm trying to stick to verifiable facts for this discussion.
 
How fast are they being led to believe it's growing? I get that some members occasionally comment about things like "fastest growing religion" (and to be honest, how often do we hear this.. I know it's been quite some time that I can't even recall the last time I heard it), but what from the top down is conveying these ideas that are being purported?

I get where he's coming from. He's undoubtedly talking about how the church reports total membership (as opposed to active membership, or even "people who claim LDS as their religion). If you look at the numbers I posted here, https://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/colton/personal/lds/membership statistics.html, you'd infer from the total membership numbers the church reports that the church's growth rate has been 2.2 - 2.4% over the past decade. In actuality, the growth in number of active members has very likely been much less than that.
 
Thanks. That certainly seems consistent with what I've read/observed.

Just to be clear on what I'm saying:

1. Growth rates reported by LDS Church are overstated
2. Net growth rates are slowing at the margin (slope of curve flattening out)--I am assuming this is a result of poor membership retention after baptism and accelerating departure rates among rank and file members due, in large part, to greater availability of information and possibly also due to Church's lagging position on social issues, among others. (My oldest daughter, for example, has ceased her activity over Church's stance on women's issues and gay rights--not that I would generalize from sample set of 1.)
3. Growth rates and share of LDS in world population fall far, far short of any prophecy or belief that the LDS Church is destined to 'fill the earth' in any sense.

That depends on how you wish to define "fill the world". If it is by pure numbers than I say that even if all 15 million were active it would fall short. But are we talking mere presence? If so I can see an arguement being made for that beginning to happen. The church is in, officially, 167 countries. Only 29 countries have no official LDS presence. Also there are 80,00ish missionaries at any one time in over 405 missions. Not to mention the world class humitarian program run by the church. In 2008 alone the church provided assistance to 3.3 million poeple in 122 countries. This help ranges from direct emergency aid (Haiti, Katrina, Sandy...) to skill teaching such as gardening and woodworking to vacinnating children against disease in the third world.

How fast are they being led to believe it's growing? I get that some members occasionally comment about things like "fastest growing religion" (and to be honest, how often do we hear this.. I know it's been quite some time that I can't even recall the last time I heard it), but what from the top down is conveying these ideas that are being purported?

It is more often a number, 15 million is the latest, and not a % but that is readily available. If you want to debate that number this thread is the place. Some good info on all sides so far.
 
I never, ever said that Mormons worship JS. I'm a bit baffled as to how you've come to that conclusion. As a nearly life-long member of the LDS Church, I can say unequivocally that Mormons DO NOT worship JS and that Mormons ARE Christians.

I do, think, however that relegating JS to merely a historical figure, albeit an important one, as Bronco70 has done is a grossly inaccurate portrayal of how Mormons view JS. He is literally 'second to Jesus Christ' in Mormon doctrine/belief, and no one is even close AND he is the source of many, if not most, core doctrines held by the LDS Church. AND I do think honestly that Mormon veneration for JS long ago crossed the line from veneration to 'personality cult' (not implying that the LDS Church is a cult).

I find this a highly rational and informed view. Perhaps the only thing that could honestly impact a person with this view is some response from a spiritual source, like. . . say, . . . . the Holy Ghost. Personally I find it important that the "logic" of Mormonism is not made so forcefully or undeniably clear that thinking persons "cannot disagree".

There is no good reason to be a Mormon, or a Christian, except your choice to love Christ as you understand Him.
 
I get where he's coming from. He's undoubtedly talking about how the church reports total membership (as opposed to active membership, or even "people who claim LDS as their religion). If you look at the numbers I posted here, https://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/colton/personal/lds/membership statistics.html, you'd infer from the total membership numbers the church reports that the church's growth rate has been 2.2 - 2.4% over the past decade. In actuality, the growth in number of active members has very likely been much less than that.

It is more often a number, 15 million is the latest, and not a % but that is readily available. If you want to debate that number this thread is the place. Some good info on all sides so far.

Total membership is a pretty straight-forward and universally understood statistic. It also has certain specific criteria (i.e. one is baptized and confirmed a member of the church after passing through some type of standardized interview process). Obviously the numbers can be dissected and investigated from numerous -- perhaps unlimited -- angles, none of which have as easily defined criteria and accessibility of data.

The claim was made that the growth isn't the same as what the membership is being led to believe. My inquiry was what exactly the membership is being led to believe. If you look at this thread it started with a simple blurb from President Monson about membership being 15 million and from there exploded. So what are people being led to believe, exactly? I think what's happening is we're seeing the claim amongst some everyday members about inflated membership growth (in an urban legend kind of way) and we're conflating it with church leaders stating comments like "15 million" or "the church is growing" and assume that the church must be perpetuating some kind of church growth myth. So do we have things coming from the top or do we have statements about growth coming from the top in light of what's occasionally said by regular members?

With regard to the 15 million statistic, it's rather silly the offense taken from this claim. I don't think it would be much too different than someone being upset about Bolerjack coming over the airwaves and stating that the game was a sell-out. You could make numerous qualifications to this statement that could include:

-Just because the game's a sellout doesn't mean the seats are filled
-There are a lot of people who on paper bought tickets but in reality were never in the arena
-At least a decent percentage of the people at the game were rooting for the visiting team
-Despite the two teams, a lot of them are probably Lakers fans, anyway
-At least a few hundred seats went to members of the media who cover the game as part of their job
-Another few dozen were scouts from other teams
-A lot of people at the game probably got free tickets from a LHM dealership purchase and have no interest in basketball
-Lots of people are bringing dates who have no interest in the Jazz

You could infer all these things, and perhaps Bolerjack could take a few minutes to qualify his statements so that nobody feels misled about coming to perhaps an erroneous conclusion that there was a sellout, but in the end...

15 million is a blurb. The church could use other metrics, such as self-identification, but the church isn't conducting the census in every country. It does, however, hold rolls of all those who have been baptized and confirmed into the church. Total membership, regardless of the organization, is pretty well understood. I also think people understand that it's understood and very few people, if any, would take that to mean that the total membership of the church is active.

As an aside, doesn't the church receive criticism for not allowing diversity of thought and belief? Wouldn't total membership be the most inclusive statistic?

Anyway, neither here nor there. As mentioned, 15 million is a blurb. There's more to those numbers, obviously. But everyone, follower and critic alike, understood that.
 
Jeopardy contestants cleaning up on the LDS category:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b2m-Xl60Vvk
 
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