Obama Government Shutdown?

[Revolution 9]

Here is a question for you all.

Does this shutdown and looming debt defualt change the way you are organizing your finances? Are you taking any extra measures to prepare for that rainy day? Especially since the reported Senate plan only kicks the can down the road till after Christmas.

It is for me. It is leading me to storing food, goods, money and other essential items.

We can't keep kicking the can down the street, but you are right that's all this deal will be. Yes, it's time to tighten up the budget, and have
a little more of a cushion. We are expecting a child in Feb just to add more fun to this situation ;-)

 

[Harambe]

OK, sir. I've decided to sidestep the blow if you mean to defend "Factcheck" or any other pet source of information bearing an established bias and an inherently false claim to a name. I understand that partisans cloak themselves with the colors they need to disarm our sensibilities, whether they are "fer" or "agin" anything.

You're entitled to your doubts about whether I understand what I say, as I may doubt your understanding of what I am trying to say, or your willingness to consider it.

In response to this question, I think I did cover this very well in one of my posts between the one you're responding to, and this one. I think this issue is irrelevant in regard to the goodness or badness of Obamacare, or the "government shutdown" which this thread is supposedly about. The pay and benefits of congressmen is not a market-determined expense either before or after the Obamacare or ACA legislation. Congressmen themselves vote on their pay, with only a token effort at separating the self-interest of the politicians from their power to appropriate public funds to themselves. It is only the perception of voters that has any effect on their impulse to take care of themselves.

This is true without regard to party or which "side" the politicians are claiming to favor.

They, and their staff, are not "paying" anything. . . . we are paying for everything they get.

This was true before the ACA, and is true now, and always will be true. . . . until they start refusing to take pay. On that point, it is also true that some politicians might be earning better money in the private sector, but those cases today are very rare, the only exceptions being very wealthy persons whose private businesses and interests are most likely getting a good suck on the public teat as well.

You are right that it is a good public policy to keep our politicians and their staff on some plan of medical care, maybe even a premium plan, while they are in our "pay". But it is a better policy for them to decide that they are no better than we are, and not seek special or favored treatment. Then maybe we would not be fools to re-elect them.

As things stand, we have gerrymander political districts all across this country, where Reps and Dems politicians have made a deal between themselves, giving themselves "safe" seats and reducing our ability to displace them from public office. Under this circumstance, it is high time we citizens should demand accountability from them, and take a very critical look at what they are doing.

One heck of a rant. Great job.

But you still missed my point. My point was not it's better or not better to keep our politicians and their staff on some medical care plan.

My point was that your statement completely ignores that the government is a large employer too. All large companies should provide some form of healthcare option for their employees. The amendment to make congressional employees use the healthcare exchange does not reflect the spirit of what the affordable care act was attempting to promote in the first place. Whether or not Obama/Dems/Pubs/JudicialBranch/Jose Conseco went outside of their legislative powers I won't even pretend to argue. But I will argue whether they had the power or not to do it, it was the right move.

 

[Nate505]

Here is a question for you all.

Does this shutdown and looming debt defualt change the way you are organizing your finances? Are you taking any extra measures to prepare for that rainy day? Especially since the reported Senate plan only kicks the can down the road till after Christmas.

It is for me. It is leading me to storing food, goods, money and other essential items.

"Thankfully" for me I don't have enough money to do anything differently.

 

[babe]

One heck of a rant. Great job.

But you still missed my point. My point was not it's better or not better to keep our politicians and their staff on some medical care plan.

My point was that your statement completely ignores that the government is a large employer too. All large companies should provide some form of healthcare option for their employees. The amendment to make congressional employees use the healthcare exchange does not stand up to what the affordable care act was attempting to promote in the first place. Whether or not Obama/Dems/Pubs/JudicialBranch/Jose Conseco went outside of their legislative powers I won't even pretend to argue. But I will argue whether they had the power or not to do it, it was the right move.

OK. Good point.

I want you on the team that fixes our government.

Sometimes I run a rant about just reducing government to some historic low, but as long as we have a government, whatever it is, we need to have people like you and me concerned about it and doing stuff to make it better.

Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 365]

We can't keep kicking the can down the street, but you are right that's all this deal will be. Yes, it's time to tighten up the budget, and have
a little more of a cushion. We are expecting a child in Feb just to add more fun to this situation ;-)

Have some of you been living in a cave?

"It's time to tighten up the budget."

Have you seen the budget for this year? Have you seen the trend since 2008? Seriously folks, perhaps the #1 lie out there is that we aren't cutting government. That we aren't getting the budget under control. That we aren't cutting gov employees.

Look at the deficit not the debt. We are clearly on the right track. And have been for quite some time. Unfortunately, fair and balanced media won't report this. They won't report the deficit, only the debt. And they'll never take responsibility for the 8 years that their brains turned off while Bush blew the country all to hell.

Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II spent like crazy and grew the government like no tomorrow. Trillions of debt don't occur overnight. Not will cutting it happen overnight. It's going to take time and some serious governing. Which is why I hope that the house falls under the Democrat power soon. Finally, real legislation and governing can occur. A solid length of time for deficit cutting legislation and oversight. No more GOP taxes, wars, and bridges to no where.

The tea bagged obstructionists who merely disagree to disagree must be booted out.

 

[babe]

@Rev, I appreciate the acknowledgement that "we can't just keep kicking the can down the road". That statement does not embrace a fundamental re-shaping of our budget and prioritys as a nation as I would argue for, but it does embrace a reasonable discussion about what needs to be done.

Our system can't be transformed in a fundamental way overnight. . . . the changes I would argue for will take decades. . . . and could only be effected through transforming the public via educational processes. And I don't like authoritarianism so my method will be something people will have to choose if ever it should be.

 

[Stoked]

We can't keep kicking the can down the street, but you are right that's all this deal will be. Yes, it's time to tighten up the budget, and have
a little more of a cushion. We are expecting a child in Feb just to add more fun to this situation ;-)

That's awesome! Grats man! But a cushion is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[fishonjazz]

"Thankfully" for me I don't have enough money to do anything differently.

This
Lol

 

[Stoked]

The House and Senate just passed a shutdown and debt limit bill!!!!

Not official yet but sweet Jesus thank you!!!! It is such an immense relief!!!!

 

[sirkickyass]

So, Kicky, we need to vet you as something other than a partisan hack and a fundamentally dishonest person in your own right.

So how come no senator in the Senate can bring up any Amendment to the Senate version of the legislation affecting the government shutdown unless Harry Reid is on board with it?


If you want the repubs in the House to re-open "democracy", why not take the same stand and demand that the Senate do the same?

This post (like many of yours) is so bizarre that I don't even know how to respond.

First, I'm not certain exactly what you're talking about because you're vague to the point of not even saying anything. I believe you may be referring to the procedural tactic of "filling the tree" on the amendment calendar. If that's the case then you obviously missed the point because "filling the tree" isn't an instance where a party changed the rules so that one specific person must consent in order to have a vote. The differences are 1) Filling the Tree is an established procedural move rather than a rules change specific to a single item and 2) Filling the Tree is designed to prevent irrelevant and/or useless amendments on unrelated bills from stopping legislative progress. The second point is particularly important because it signifies that these two things work in opposite directions. The House rules change is designed to prevent votes. The Senate "filling the tree" rule is designed to allow votes to happen rather than be consistently stymied by simply repeatedly attaching (for example) a law banning all abortions to every bill that a single Senator personally doesn't like.

Second, your statement above does not acknowledge, or is not aware of, significant procedural differences in the House and Senate. By conflating these two events you're basically asking me why House Democrats won't let House Republicans filibuster. It's a nonsense statement.

Your last sentence appears to be shouting at a scarecrow as there's nothing in my post about "re-opening" democracy. Here's the reality: Everyone's known for weeks that a full vote of the House would produce agreement with the Senate bill. This has been the worst kept secret in Washington. My post was about a procedural move that (to my knowledge and that is after a bit of research) is totally unique to only this one instance.

But feel free to think I'm a partisan hack if you like. Personally I think your politics are incoherent beyond belief.

 

[babe]

This post (like many of yours) is so bizarre that I don't even know how to respond.

First, I'm not certain exactly what you're talking about because you're vague to the point of not even saying anything. I believe you may be referring to the procedural tactic of "filling the tree" on the amendment calendar. If that's the case then you obviously missed the point because "filling the tree" isn't an instance where a party changed the rules so that one specific person must consent in order to have a vote. The differences are 1) Filling the Tree is an established procedural move rather than a rules change specific to a single item and 2) Filling the Tree is designed to prevent irrelevant and/or useless amendments on unrelated bills from stopping legislative progress. The second point is particularly important because it signifies that these two things work in opposite directions. The House rules change is designed to prevent votes. The Senate "filling the tree" rule is designed to allow votes to happen rather than be consistently stymied by simply repeatedly attaching (for example) a law banning all abortions to every bill that a single Senator personally doesn't like.

Second, your statement above does not acknowledge, or is not aware of, significant procedural differences in the House and Senate. By conflating these two events you're basically asking me why House Democrats won't let House Republicans filibuster. It's a nonsense statement.

Your last sentence appears to be shouting at a scarecrow as there's nothing in my post about "re-opening" democracy. Here's the reality: Everyone's known for weeks that a full vote of the House would produce agreement with the Senate bill. This has been the worst kept secret in Washington. My post was about a procedural move that (to my knowledge and that is after a bit of research) is totally unique to only this one instance.

But feel free to think I'm a partisan hack if you like. Personally I think your politics are incoherent beyond belief. :)

Kicky, you're the lawyer who has stated that there is no value in adhering to the Constitution, since it's out-of-date, and some dudes in 1789 forming a contract for several States to adopt a sort of unified (federal) government with effective, designated powers, didn't know squat and should conveniently be ignored at whim by yourself and the whole modern flotilla of lawyers, judges, bureaucrats and anyone else with money enough to buy a better way of management. . . . uuuuhhhhmmmm....... well, yes you might not have said it just like that, but that is what you meant.

I find your politics incoherent, if trendy.

Everyone in Washington has known, for years not just weeks, that Obama and Harry Reid will use every device they can, to block curbs on their spending agenda originating in the House, and that the House will cave after a suitably impressive tea-party "rally", even though a majority of Americans don't want the deficits or Obamacare, and never did.

 

[babe]

This post (like many of yours) is so bizarre that I don't even know how to respond.

First, I'm not certain exactly what you're talking about because you're vague to the point of not even saying anything. I believe you may be referring to the procedural tactic of "filling the tree" on the amendment calendar. If that's the case then you obviously missed the point because "filling the tree" isn't an instance where a party changed the rules so that one specific person must consent in order to have a vote. The differences are 1) Filling the Tree is an established procedural move rather than a rules change specific to a single item and 2) Filling the Tree is designed to prevent irrelevant and/or useless amendments on unrelated bills from stopping legislative progress. The second point is particularly important because it signifies that these two things work in opposite directions. The House rules change is designed to prevent votes. The Senate "filling the tree" rule is designed to allow votes to happen rather than be consistently stymied by simply repeatedly attaching (for example) a law banning all abortions to every bill that a single Senator personally doesn't like.

Second, your statement above does not acknowledge, or is not aware of, significant procedural differences in the House and Senate. By conflating these two events you're basically asking me why House Democrats won't let House Republicans filibuster. It's a nonsense statement.

Your last sentence appears to be shouting at a scarecrow as there's nothing in my post about "re-opening" democracy. Here's the reality: Everyone's known for weeks that a full vote of the House would produce agreement with the Senate bill. This has been the worst kept secret in Washington. My post was about a procedural move that (to my knowledge and that is after a bit of research) is totally unique to only this one instance.

But feel free to think I'm a partisan hack if you like. Personally I think your politics are incoherent beyond belief.

you have stated that you were a federal court clerk, which probably does give you more of a knowledge base on the internal operations of government, and it is apparent to me that you know more about the procedures in the House and Senate than I do, because all I know is that a lot of things just don't look like they serve my interests, and do serve the interests of some few folks with a lot of clout.

I do think that Harry Reid has used his position of favor with the President, the press, and other more influential interests to do some things that are not right, and which rank orders of magnitude greater than whatever was done that was the basis of your post, the video of some folks doing a publicity show-and-tell take down of the House temporary provision you were talking about. And that little video was all about "re-opening democracy" in case you didn't really watch it. It must have been on a talking points list you were obediently spreading out to the masses if you can with a straight, even lawyer, face assert that my mention of it is some kind of "scarecrow" because it was what your post used as a basis for your comment.

Lawyers are usually really good at talking around concise points until nobody even knows what they're talking about, and can even talk enough to make people think they know what they are talking about. But to my point, your typically "liberal" rhetoric of personal attacks, however well-crafted and laced with insults, is no excuse for Harry Reid.

Harry Reid used his power to make it difficult for people to know or react to the ACA while it was on his table. Over two thousand pages of law the Senators, nor the Congressmen, even had time to read, and he got it passed on Obama's orders in the middle of the night on Christmas Eve, on a line of stealth tactics that included giving some special favors to some states and some "representatives" that were essentially "bribes".

You are obviously committed to your "progressive" political views and are willing to take to the trenches to fight for the fashionable ideal of "progress". People who understand only poorly what all is being done, who have little informed press or media that will bring them up to speed honestly, are, in my opinion, understandably alarmed.

But my point stands, regardless of the technicalities, that both the moderate Republicans like Romney and most of the Democrats in our Legislature are no innocents when it comes to political tactics, and the little charade of temporary House rule barring anyone from offering amendments to a certain float of legislation without Eric Cantor's approval, is of minuscule importance when compared with all that has been done to promote the progressive agenda in a virtual absence of public understanding.

you and the general class of informed progressives actually do not want to be bothered by what the "ignorant masses" think or want. If you did, you would understand the basic fairness of my response asking you demand that Harry Reid should permit amendments to Obamacare, including a delay of the personal mandates, and the budget to be proposed and debated in the Senate. As it turned out, the Dems got quite a lot of perks attached somehow, and the measure passed has no effective debt ceiling and no binding concessions to the poor damned ignorant "tea baggers" who happen to be trying to represent a majority of the American people.

Obama effectively granted a delay in the employer mandates by "Presidential Perogative", probably securing some millions in "contributions" while doing so. The basic precept of people being equal under the law is thus violated by every favor Obama hands out to his supporters, but the press doesn't mind that at all. Instead, some poor damned powerless congressmen who are "outsiders" within their own organized party, who tried in some desperate and hopeless gesture to hold a line in negotiating with Harry Reid, are the only bad guys in town.

The ACA is the worst piece of legislation in American History, and it is designed that way to pave the way for a "solution" that will end up being a single-payer system, meaning the government will be in absolute control of American medical care. Obama has always seen that as his goal. It doesn't matter that people don't want that, it is designed to give them hell until they will accept it after all. . . . . all confused and misinformed and powerless to oppose it.

That's your kind of "democracy". Not mine.