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Hayward, Kirilenko, and the myth of "The Max"

7StraightIsGreat

Well-Known Member
In all of the fallout that has become Gordon's offer sheet with the Hornets, I'm seeing a ton of Jazz fans complain that Hayward is not worth the max, and many others draw a comparison to Kirilenko's bad max deal and how it screwed the Jazz. Not too surprising. Most fans on here go for the easy, low hanging fruit when the decide to bitch about something. A few thoughts:

-I'm sick of hearing that Hayward isn't a "max" player as if there is a standard max for every player in the NBA. The max for guys with more years under their belt like Lebron and Melo is higher than Hayward's "max". Hayward is not good enough to be the face of a franchise, but only a handful of NBA players are, and they make more money than G-Time. (Rookie deals of a few superstars being the only exception)

-When resigning Kirilenko, Utah was bidding against themselves and yet somehow managed to max out AK in money and years. This time around, they let the market dictate Hayward's value, and once the deal is matched, Utah is on the hook for a shorter term.

-Kirilenko's contract ate up 30% of Utah's cap room each year. With the new salary cap #'s coming in today, it looks like year 1 of Hayward's deal will eat up just under 23% of Utah's cap room. And while Hayward's contract has a modest increase each year, it sounds like with new TV money being distributed in 2015, the cap will grow to the point in which there's a better than average chance that the last 2 years of Hayward's contract takes up less than 20% of Utah's cap. Bottom line: The thought that Hayward's deal will handcuff the Jazz as bad as Kirilenko's is a misguided, lazy argument.

-Is Hayward still getting over paid? Absolutely, but it's much more palatable than all of the knee jerk complainers would have you believe. The Parsons offer sheet just reinforced the open market value on Hayward. Lindsay is matching and he is making the absolute right decision. Those who can't stomach that will just have to be content bitching and moaning for the next 4 years.
 
I'm sick of hearing that Hayward isn't a "max" player as if there is a standard max for every player in the NBA. The max for guys with more years under their belt like Lebron and Melo is higher than Hayward's "max". Hayward is not good enough to be the face of a franchise, but only a handful of NBA players are, and they make more money than G-Time. (Rookie deals of a few superstars being the only exception)
Hayward isn't worth 20%+ of the cap.

Kirilenko's contract ate up 30% of Utah's cap room each year.
Nope. Max deals for players with 0-6 years of service time started at roughly 25% of the cap in the 1999 CBA, the 2005 CBA AND the 2011 CBA.

Is Hayward still getting over paid? Absolutely, but it's much more palatable than all of the knee jerk complainers would have you believe. The Parsons offer sheet just reinforced the open market value on Hayward. Lindsay is matching and he is making the absolute right decision. Those who can't stomach that will just have to be content bitching and moaning for the next 4 years.
If you can't handle opposing opinions respectfully, maybe you should **** off.

Worthless ****ing thread; bitching/moaning about bitching/moaning while misrepresenting others' opinions and misstating verifiable facts. Jesus.
 
Nope. Max deals for players with 0-6 years of service time started at roughly 25% of the cap in the 1999 CBA, the 2005 CBA AND the 2011 CBA.

So maybe you can help me out with the math because something isn't adding up. The Salary Cap for 2010-2011 was just over $58 million. AK's salary was $17.8 million. Using those numbers, he was was actually eating up just over 30% of Utah's cap.

And by the way, your temper tantrum at the end of your last post was ****ing epic and ironic all at the same time. Well played.
 
Hayward isn't worth 20%+ of the cap.

Nope. Max deals for players with 0-6 years of service time started at roughly 25% of the cap in the 1999 CBA, the 2005 CBA AND the 2011 CBA.

If you can't handle opposing opinions respectfully, maybe you should **** off.

Worthless ****ing thread; bitching/moaning about bitching/moaning while misrepresenting others' opinions and misstating verifiable facts. Jesus.

Nicely done.
 
we'll all regret the forthcoming Jazz epoch of mediocrity.
not only those whiny bitches like myself.
Last year's Jazz are the proof.
Jazz don't have a valuable stock in their so-called Core5.
Dante could be another story though!
 
So maybe you can help me out with the math because something isn't adding up. The Salary Cap for 2010-2011 was just over $58 million. AK's salary was $17.8 million. Using those numbers, he was was actually eating up just over 30% of Utah's cap.

And by the way, your temper tantrum at the end of your last post was ****ing epic and ironic all at the same time. Well played.

IIRC that AK contract was one of the last under an older CBA that allowed for bigger raises. I believe that salary cap during AK's contract stayed roughly the same value. So AK's contract started near 25% of the cap and increased faster than the Salary Cap increased.
 
In all of the fallout that has become Gordon's offer sheet with the Hornets, I'm seeing a ton of Jazz fans complain that Hayward is not worth the max, and many others draw a comparison to Kirilenko's bad max deal and how it screwed the Jazz. Not too surprising. Most fans on here go for the easy, low hanging fruit when the decide to bitch about something. A few thoughts:

-I'm sick of hearing that Hayward isn't a "max" player as if there is a standard max for every player in the NBA. The max for guys with more years under their belt like Lebron and Melo is higher than Hayward's "max". Hayward is not good enough to be the face of a franchise, but only a handful of NBA players are, and they make more money than G-Time. (Rookie deals of a few superstars being the only exception)

-When resigning Kirilenko, Utah was bidding against themselves and yet somehow managed to max out AK in money and years. This time around, they let the market dictate Hayward's value, and once the deal is matched, Utah is on the hook for a shorter term.

-Kirilenko's contract ate up 30% of Utah's cap room each year. With the new salary cap #'s coming in today, it looks like year 1 of Hayward's deal will eat up just under 23% of Utah's cap room. And while Hayward's contract has a modest increase each year, it sounds like with new TV money being distributed in 2015, the cap will grow to the point in which there's a better than average chance that the last 2 years of Hayward's contract takes up less than 20% of Utah's cap. Bottom line: The thought that Hayward's deal will handcuff the Jazz as bad as Kirilenko's is a misguided, lazy argument.

-Is Hayward still getting over paid? Absolutely, but it's much more palatable than all of the knee jerk complainers would have you believe. The Parsons offer sheet just reinforced the open market value on Hayward. Lindsay is matching and he is making the absolute right decision. Those who can't stomach that will just have to be content bitching and moaning for the next 4 years.
you are right, we shouldnt complain.

I hope we max all of our players tbh.
 
IIRC that AK contract was one of the last under an older CBA that allowed for bigger raises. I believe that salary cap during AK's contract stayed roughly the same value. So AK's contract started near 25% of the cap and increased faster than the Salary Cap increased.

Thank you for the clarification.

Sorry GVC, looks like you whiffed on that one.
 
Thank you for the clarification.

Sorry GVC, looks like you whiffed on that one.
Uh...You might want to look up the definition of "each". AK's contract did not take up 30% of the cap in "each" season as you claimed. What I posted was 100% accurate.


It's even funnier considering GVC neg repped me earlier today for simply posting an opinion on Hayward that he didn't agree with.

Nicely done indeed.
Nope. I negged you for the same reason I insulted this thread: The best argument you can muster is "if you disagree with me there must be something wrong with you".

In short, you're an idiot. You seem only capable of stating opinions and insulting those who disagree with your opinions. Given your Ute logo avatar, I probably shouldn't be surprised.
 
Uh...You might want to look up the definition of "each". AK's contract did not take up 30% of the cap in "each" season as you claimed. What I posted was 100% accurate.


Nope. I negged you for the same reason I insulted this thread: The best argument you can muster is "if you disagree with me there must be something wrong with you".

In short, you're an idiot. You seem only capable of stating opinions and insulting those who disagree with your opinions. Given your Ute logo avatar, I probably shouldn't be surprised.

God you're a tool. I can certainly admit that I was wrong in regards to AK's salary taking up 30% of the cap each year, but you smugly dismissed the fact that a yearly salary during that time couldn't equal more than 25% of the cap when in fact it can and did in the case of AK's 2010-2011 season. Of course, I don't expect you to own up to acting like a smug, know it all jackass, only to end up being wrong.

And I'll stand by my belief that Utah has one of the dumbest fan bases in the NBA. You only help further my belief.
 
Hayward is not good enough to be the face of a franchise, but only a handful of NBA players are, and they make more money than G-Time. (Rookie deals of a few superstars being the only exception)

Steph Curry, Tony Parker, Kevin Love, DeMarcus Cousins, Harden, John Wall, Rondo, Joakim Noah, Goran Dragic, Lamarcus Aldridge, Derrick Favors, and Tim Duncan make less money then Gordon.

None of these are rookie contracts. Worst contract since Hedo Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace etc.
 
but you smugly dismissed the fact that a yearly salary during that time couldn't equal more than 25% of the cap when in fact it can and did in the case of AK's 2010-2011 season.
Maybe you can point that out in this thread or anywhere else; I can't seem to find where I did anything like that. Can you not read?
 
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Uh...You might want to look up the definition of "each". AK's contract did not take up 30% of the cap in "each" season as you claimed. What I posted was 100% accurate.


Nope. I negged you for the same reason I insulted this thread: The best argument you can muster is "if you disagree with me there must be something wrong with you".

In short, you're an idiot. You seem only capable of stating opinions and insulting those who disagree with your opinions. Given your Ute logo avatar, I probably shouldn't be surprised.




Easy there, buddy.
 
Uh...You might want to look up the definition of "each". AK's contract did not take up 30% of the cap in "each" season as you claimed. What I posted was 100% accurate.


Nope. I negged you for the same reason I insulted this thread: The best argument you can muster is "if you disagree with me there must be something wrong with you".

In short, you're an idiot. You seem only capable of stating opinions and insulting those who disagree with your opinions. Given your Ute logo avatar, I probably shouldn't be surprised.

So you were 'technically correct,' which we all know is the best kind of correct. Nevermind the point he was making about the two situations dissimarity, which your nitpicking didn't address at all really. But you scored some cheap points so good for you I guess.
 
you are right, we shouldnt complain.

I hope we max all of our players tbh.

If Hayward's getting maxed, why shouldn't Burks and Kanter?

I love the argument that this deal occurs in a timeless vacuum where the Jazz just have cap space they need to spend for all of time.
 
And I'll stand by my belief that Utah has one of the dumbest fan bases in the NBA. You only help further my belief.
So, you screw up some facts, and the person that presents the accurate information is proof of the dumbness of the fan base? I'm sorry your feelings got hurt, but someone being mean =/= someone being dumb. I hope this isn't a revelation to you.
 
So you were 'technically correct,' which we all know is the best kind of correct. Nevermind the point he was making about the two situations dissimarity, which your nitpicking didn't address at all really. But you scored some cheap points so good for you I guess.

I believe saying that Hayward wasn't worth 20% of the cap addresses the point completely, actually.
 
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