Development Concerns

[magic]

Obviously one of the main goals of this year is to strike a balance between developing our players and winning games. A trend that I’ve noticed in the last few games is that Hayward has been playing a lot of point forward, as early as the third quarter. I don’t mind this happening in crunch time and possibly the beginning of the fourth quarter, but I really don’t like it when we use this strategy as early as the third quarter.

An argument can be made that Hayward is the only one that can score (as the announcers say), but I would prefer that we struggle and learn how to play within the system rather than relying on Hayward. I feel like this really hampers Dante’s development, as his role essentially becomes to stand in the corner and wait for the ball. But I also feel like this is bad for the other players as they simply become dependent on Hayward.
I would prefer that we continue to run our offense as normal, even if that means we end up sucking badly. Because let’s face it, as amazing as Hayward has been playing, he still wasn’t able to carry us to victory over the lowly, half-injured Pacers. So instead of having somewhat competitive losses by allowing Hayward do everything as early as the 3rd quarter, I say we just straight up learn the hard way, let Exum learn how to be a point guard, have everyone else learn how to execute in these situations without relying solely on Hayward, and so be it if we have “noncompetitive” losses. Either path is giving us a loss. But I feel it will be better for us in the long term to develop our other players and I’m confident that these guys would eventually get it before the end of the season.

Not even Kobe Bryant can do it by himself, as witnessed by the Laker's first vicory. Hell, not even Lebron can do it by himself, so I feel this should be our strategy going forward.

 

[LjJazzman]

I disagree, I think management would disagree, and I think the majority of fans especially the casual fan would disagree.

Having hayward play point forward to try and take over a game a handful of plays here and there is a good thing for HIS development, and we have a huge investment in him. A much bigger investment then what we have in Exum, or anyone else on the team for that matter. The Jazz are paying him huge money NOW, not huge money later on. His development is the top priority. It also helps us get wins which is what everyone wants right now. It's not like we are using Richard Jefferson to try and win games we are using ONLY important pieces to this team to win games. All of the most important roles on the team right now are being filled with core players. Zero outside vets are being used to try and help this team win.

 

[hhhhkau]

Tough call on Hayward re: yesterday. To me seemed he didn't really get the chance to carry us to the win because they didn't go through him enough as much as they could've late in the game. He was 11/15 or whatever and seemed to have very few touches in the last 5 or whatever minutes. It was his teammates who missed good looks as the Pacers pushed away. Maybe he didn't demand the ball enough? It seemed like the shots were coming within the system anyway.

I reckon Exum is off the ball more than you'd hope in-part because his conditioning is so lacking. Not concerned about his development at all, even though we'd all like to see him assert himself more. Quin knows best. Patience.

 

[magic]

Yeah I wasn't referring to a handful of plays or closing out games. I'm talking about him closing out entire halves(i.e. starting from the third quarter). I don't think making him do that starting from the third quarter is really developing him. But even if it was, I don't see how that is better for the team even though we invested a ton of money in him. He hasn't gotten us more wins when we've used him that early.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I disagree, I think management would disagree, and I think the majority of fans especially the casual fan would disagree.

Having hayward play point forward to try and take over a game a handful of plays here and there is a good thing for HIS development, and we have a huge investment in him. A much bigger investment then what we have in Exum, or anyone else on the team for that matter. The Jazz are paying him huge money NOW, not huge money later on. His development is the top priority. It also helps us get wins which is what everyone wants right now. It's not like we are using Richard Jefferson to try and win games we are using ONLY important pieces to this team to win games. All of the most important roles on the team right now are being filled with core players. Zero outside vets are being used to try and help this team win.

This... but I would also add that Hayward gets his with the team involved unlike some iso wings like Melo and Kobe. I think it may be the last problem this team has right now tbh.

 

[LjJazzman]

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/teams/uth?season=2014

According to this he does in fact get us wins.

If anything I wanted to us go through him more last game, not less.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think they should be going to Hayward even more than they are now. He usually makes the right play anyway and will pass up shots to get his teammates good shots.

Plus he has earned more responsibility so far this year

 

[jjscap]

Using Exum as a spot up shooter at times is one of the smartest things the coach did. You see he will be getting more duties over time slowly, he already is because he looks like a fast learner and tough competitor.

 

[magic]

https://www.boxscoregeeks.com/teams/uth?season=2014

According to this he does in fact get us wins.

If anything I wanted to us go through him more last game, not less.

How does this prove anything? I don't even know how they are measuring this metric.

I'm not arguing Hayward should close out games. I'm saying it shouldn't happen so early (i.e the third quarter). Even if he was Lebron (which he will never be), I would still argue that the team should develop the rest of their players, because not even Lebron could carry the current team we have to a championship

 

[LjJazzman]

How does this prove anything? I don't even know how they are measuring this metric.

I'm not arguing Hayward should close out games. I'm saying it shouldn't happen so early (i.e the third quarter). Even if he was Lebron (which he will never be), I would still argue that the team should develop the rest of their players, because not even Lebron could carry the current team we have to a championship

You don't know how this is measured? How about using your mouse and clicking to learn about it instead of just automatically dismissing it?

You bring up going through hayward in the 3rd. That happened to be the only time the team played well in the entire half, we went on a big run, and you are saying its a bad thing? That just doesn't compute.

 

[One Brow]

I'm not arguing Hayward should close out games. I'm saying it shouldn't happen so early (i.e the third quarter). Even if he was Lebron (which he will never be), I would still argue that the team should develop the rest of their players, because not even Lebron could carry the current team we have to a championship

Providing an immediate, right-in-your-face example of the things a player needs to do to generate wins *is* a method of development.

 

[magic]

You don't know how this is measured? How about using your mouse and clicking to learn about it instead of just automatically dismissing it?

You bring up going through hayward in the 3rd. That happened to be the only time the team played well in the entire half, we went on a big run, and you are saying its a bad thing? That just doesn't compute.

How about you try reading my entire beginning post instead of just one section of it. I said that while Hayward playing point guard starting since 3rd quarter might make the game somewhat competitive, we will still lose the game. And that's exactly what happened in the Indiana game and in a couple of other games.

So I'm saying instead of just relying on Hayward and losing games, that all our players learn to play together, even if that initially means losing games by more points.

 

[Stifle Tower]

I disagree, I think management would disagree, and I think the majority of fans especially the casual fan would disagree.

Having hayward play point forward to try and take over a game a handful of plays here and there is a good thing for HIS development, and we have a huge investment in him. A much bigger investment then what we have in Exum, or anyone else on the team for that matter. The Jazz are paying him huge money NOW, not huge money later on. His development is the top priority. It also helps us get wins which is what everyone wants right now. It's not like we are using Richard Jefferson to try and win games we are using ONLY important pieces to this team to win games. All of the most important roles on the team right now are being filled with core players. Zero outside vets are being used to try and help this team win.

This. Hayward is not only leading the team in PPG, but also assists. The idea is to make passes to open players to get baskets. With the exception of a couple of games (Dallas and Indiana), Trey has had terrible assist totals. If we need to run the offense with a point forward, then let's do it!

 

[LjJazzman]

How about you try reading my entire beginning post instead of just one section of it. I said that while Hayward playing point guard starting since 3rd quarter might make the game somewhat competitive, we will still lose the game. And that's exactly what happened in the Indiana game and in a couple of other games.

So I'm saying instead of just relying on Hayward and losing games, that all our players learn to play together, even if that initially means losing games by more points.

How did that go toward us losing the game? I hope you realize that we did great when hayward was leading the charge, and we lost the game when Hayward came out and Exum and Trey were running things. We are 100% playing together, and even when Hayward is handling the ball a lot he distributes, its not like he is a selfish player. He scored 30 points on only 15 shots, far from a self game. There is no way you can make an argument that we weren't playing as a team because of Hayward.

I think you argument that we are not developing players because Hayward is playing point forward is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[magic]

How did that go toward us losing the game? I hope you realize that we did great when hayward was leading the charge, and we lost the game when Hayward came out and Exum and Trey were running things. We are 100% playing together, and even when Hayward is handling the ball a lot he distributes, its not like he is a selfish player. He scored 30 points on only 15 shots, far from a self game. There is no way you can make an argument that we weren't playing as a team because of Hayward.

I think you argument that we are not developing players because Hayward is playing point forward is absolutely ludicrous.

Well true Hayward did not take every shot and run every play in the 4th quarter, but he did run the majority of plays and we still lost. And I never said it went towards losing the game, I just said it wasn't enough to win.

And I don't think you've been watching the same games as I have, because when Hayward plays the point it has a completely different dynamic. And it's not ludicrous at all. By having Hayward play the point, Dante is designated to standing in the corner and not developing his point guard skills. Moreover,unlike how someone pointed out that's a good idea, it really isn't because Exum is shooting only 30% from the 3 point line.

 

[candrew]

Hayward goes long pockets without touching the ball - might have been The Pistons game where he went the entire first period with maybe 2 or 3 touches. Jazz should run everything through him like Harden with the Rockets - I'm excited about QS's motion offense but Hayward should be featured - at least until Burke learns to use his driving skills to dish out and make other players around him better.

 

[Ellipse]

We are trying to build a competitive team from the young players we drafted and acquired over the last 5 years. If the best team we can field is centered around Hayward playing point forward, then the other players need to adjust their games accordingly. I haven't seen any evidence of Hayward hogging the ball or freezing out other players. In fact, I am more concerned about Burke and Burks doing that than Hayward. As for Exum, his game is coming along nicely and I love how he plays when he and Hayward are on the floor together.

The player's roles are evolving under Quin, as each find their niche in his system. Why don't we let the season play out and see where we are after 40 games.

 

[freakazoid]

Wow.

 

[Hekate]

I am not sure yet if Haywards game is tailored for Quin's offense or Quin's offense is tailored to Hay's game. As much as we have been good with Hay on the floor, we are almost as bad when he isn't on the floor. I see some valid points in Magic's posts. We are highly dependent on one player for a developing team. It may be because Burks and Burke sucks and Kanter can't find playing time because of defense but I think we will have a better idea as season goes on.

 

[cowhide]

How about you try reading my entire beginning post instead of just one section of it. I said that while Hayward playing point guard starting since 3rd quarter might make the game somewhat competitive, we will still lose the game. And that's exactly what happened in the Indiana game and in a couple of other games.

So I'm saying instead of just relying on Hayward and losing games, that all our players learn to play together, even if that initially means losing games by more points.

We lost the Indiana game because other guys couldn't make shots, we couldn't get a key rebound and we couldn't stop AJ Price. Without Hayward playing well the Jazz had no chance to be in the game. The only two guys who should have shot the ball were Hayward and Kanter in this game. You go with the hot hand. I don't think you are stopping anyone's development by allowing the hot hand to shoot in one game. I think playing Trey too much is hurting Exum development at PG. I think Exum not being in shape hurts his development. I think your concerns are misguided.