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Clayton or Collier?

Who Will Be Better?

  • Collier

  • Clayton

Results are only viewable after voting.
RandyForRubio said:
You’re taking a broad view and unsuccessfully trying to narrow it down.

Does winning or losing summer league games matter in the grand scheme? Of course not. Does players being competitive and trying to win summer league games matter when it’s your young and upcoming prospects? Of course. It shows competitiveness.

Shooting translates, whether it’s pickup ball or summer league or college. If you ahoot well there, you’ll more than likely shoot fine in the games. If you don’t shoot well, you almost certainly won’t.

If you can’t defend in a summer league game, you won’t be defending well in a regular season game.

The idea that these games don’t matter for anything is just so outlandishly stupid it’s hard to argue against. Might as well say that college games don’t matter. Heck, nba players load manage during the regular season. Regular season games don’t matter now! It’s just stupid, lazy, logic.
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What are we talking about here? If we’re talking about what these kids will be in 3-5 years (which is what matters most), a few SL games are pretty meaningless. And that’s what I believe fishonjazz was talking about. And you call it stupid, lazy logic. Hello?
 
Collier works well bc he is ball dominant on a roster filled mostly with play finishers. But if you’re hoping to see players develop and expand that part of their games (i.e Ace, Cody, Walt) he is not great for that. Very few players are good enough to demand the on ball share he does, and even when those guys are the elite of the elite it’s questionable if that’s a winning strategy. So either Collier needs to become one of the very best in the game with the ball or develop some skill that will allow him to play without it. Both are fairly unlikely imo.

There’s also the defensive side of the ball. At the end of the day Collier is still a small guard and we’ve seen how the market values small guards who cannot defend. I don’t think he’s terrible, but not exactly a standout performer on that end (I think his turnover problems and missed layups hurt his defensive metrics).

BTW, Collier was 7th in the NBA in on ball% last year. The guys ahead of him are:

Brunson
Trae
Cade
Elfrid Payton
Harden
Lamelo

I think his career will end up like one of these players.
 
RandyForRubio said:
You’re taking a broad view and unsuccessfully trying to narrow it down.

Does winning or losing summer league games matter in the grand scheme? Of course not. Does players being competitive and trying to win summer league games matter when it’s your young and upcoming prospects? Of course. It shows competitiveness.

Shooting translates, whether it’s pickup ball or summer league or college. If you ahoot well there, you’ll more than likely shoot fine in the games. If you don’t shoot well, you almost certainly won’t.

If you can’t defend in a summer league game, you won’t be defending well in a regular season game.

The idea that these games don’t matter for anything is just so outlandishly stupid it’s hard to argue against. Might as well say that college games don’t matter. Heck, nba players load manage during the regular season. Regular season games don’t matter now! It’s just stupid, lazy, logic.
Click to expand...
"Does winning or losing summer league games matter in the grand scheme? Of course not. Does players being competitive and trying to win summer league games matter when it’s your young and upcoming prospects? Of course. It shows competitiveness." I already know that every player playing in summer league is competitive. If they weren't they would have no chance of ever playing in the nba. Though they might not play their hardest in SL because they know it doesn't matter and they dont want to get hurt in a meaningless game and risk millions of dollars for their future.

"Shooting translates, whether it’s pickup ball or summer league or college. If you ahoot well there, you’ll more than likely shoot fine in the games. If you don’t shoot well, you almost certainly won’t." That kevin durant dude definitely never learned to shoot after his poor shooting in summer league.

"If you can’t defend in a summer league game, you won’t be defending well in a regular season game." Or you improve over time. Get better coaching. Get bigger and stronger. Or you care more in a real game than a summer league when you are a top pick with a guaranteed spot on the team. Lots of variable involved here.

"The idea that these games don’t matter for anything is just so outlandishly stupid it’s hard to argue against. Might as well say that college games don’t matter." The games do matter to dudes trying to get on a roster. They dont matter for much of what is being discussed in the context of my comment that the games dont matter (Rotation in the upcoming season is mostly what I was getting at. Hardy doesn't look at summer league play to determine who starts out of collier or WCJ for example. He will use training camp, practice, pre season and actual regular season game to make those decisions. Hardy doesn't care how collier played in summer league. He cares how he plays in practice and actual nba games.)

"Heck, nba players load manage during the regular season. Regular season games don’t matter now!" This actually quite true for those particular games. If a team and coach really want to win a particular game then they will definitely play their best players if they are available. But the fact is that often times throughout the regular season teams just dont really think every game matters so they rest dudes. You definitely wont see dudes resting in playoff games. They still matter. Many regular season games still matter as well but obviously not all of them.
 
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KqWIN said:
Collier works well bc he is ball dominant on a roster filled mostly with play finishers. But if you’re hoping to see players develop and expand that part of their games (i.e Ace, Cody, Walt) he is not great for that. Very few players are good enough to demand the on ball share he does, and even when those guys are the elite of the elite it’s questionable if that’s a winning strategy. So either Collier needs to become one of the very best in the game with the ball or develop some skill that will allow him to play without it. Both are fairly unlikely imo.

There’s also the defensive side of the ball. At the end of the day Collier is still a small guard and we’ve seen how the market values small guards who cannot defend. I don’t think he’s terrible, but not exactly a standout performer on that end (I think his turnover problems and missed layups hurt his defensive metrics).

BTW, Collier was 7th in the NBA in on ball% last year. The guys ahead of him are:

Brunson
Trae
Cade
Elfrid Payton
Harden
Lamelo

I think his career will end up like one of these players.
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I think his career will end up worse than all of those players. Have to be able to shoot better than collier can at his size and position. Cant have walker kessler level shooters playing the point lol.
 
fishonjazz said:
"Does winning or losing summer league games matter in the grand scheme? Of course not. Does players being competitive and trying to win summer league games matter when it’s your young and upcoming prospects? Of course. It shows competitiveness." I already know that every player playing in summer league is competitive. If they weren't they would have no chance of ever playing in the nba. Though they might not play their hardest in SL because they know it doesn't matter and they dont want to get hurt in a meaningless game and risk millions of dollars for their future.

"Shooting translates, whether it’s pickup ball or summer league or college. If you ahoot well there, you’ll more than likely shoot fine in the games. If you don’t shoot well, you almost certainly won’t." That kevin durant dude definitely never learned to shoot after his poor shooting in summer league.

"If you can’t defend in a summer league game, you won’t be defending well in a regular season game." Or you improve over time. Get better coaching. Get bigger and stronger. Or you care more in a real game than a summer league when you are a top pick with a guaranteed spot on the team. Lots of variable involved here.

"The idea that these games don’t matter for anything is just so outlandishly stupid it’s hard to argue against. Might as well say that college games don’t matter." The games do matter to dudes trying to get on a roster. They dont matter for much of what is being discussed in the context of my comment that the games dont matter (Rotation in the upcoming season is mostly what I was getting at. Hardy doesn't look at summer league play to determine who starts out of collier or WCJ for example. He will use training camp, practice, pre season and actual regular season game to make those decisions. Hardy doesn't care how collier played in summer league. He cares how he plays in practice and actual nba games.)

"Heck, nba players load manage during the regular season. Regular season games don’t matter now!" This actually quite true for those particular games. If a team and coach really want to win a particular game then they will definitely play their best players if they are available. But the fact is that often times throughout the regular season teams just dont really think every game matters so they rest dudes. You definitely wont see dudes resting in playoff games. They still matter. Many regular season games still matter as well but obviously not all of them.
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You quoted this in a format that’s difficult to respond to point by point on a cell phone, but I’ll try.

Kevin Durant was statistically a poor shooter his rookie season. We had also seen that he was a world class shooter in college. Slightly different than saying Collier’s FT stats don’t matter because it’s summer league.

I promise you Hardy cares how Collier and the others look during summer league. It’s a time when they can show if they can do more, if they’ve improved, etc. It’s not a huge thing, doesn’t guarantee success, but it’s not nothing. If it meant nothing, they wouldn’t do it.
 
RandyForRubio said:
You quoted this in a format that’s difficult to respond to point by point on a cell phone, but I’ll try.

Kevin Durant was statistically a poor shooter his rookie season. We had also seen that he was a world class shooter in college. Slightly different than saying Collier’s FT stats don’t matter because it’s summer league.

I promise you Hardy cares how Collier and the others look during summer league. It’s a time when they can show if they can do more, if they’ve improved, etc. It’s not a huge thing, doesn’t guarantee success, but it’s not nothing. If it meant nothing, they wouldn’t do it.
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I guess I will explain the context of my "SL doesn't matter post" even though I thought it was obvious.
People watch summer league and then make prognostications about playing time/roles/minutes after watching the garbage summer league basketball.
My comment about it not mattering is in that context.
If Collier sucks in summer league and WCJ is amazing but then in fall camp and pre season and actual regular season games Collier is playing amazing and WCJ sucks then hardy won't be like "well I have to give the minutes to WCJ. After all he was way better in summer league"
The only thing that matters about summer league is that the fringe guys get a chance to show teams what they can do and maybe get a contract.
I promise you that Hardy doesn't really care how Collier looked during summer league. I mean I'm sure he would prefer Collier look like Steph in summer league over looking like he can't shoot but it really doesn't matter if he looks like Steph in SL and then can't make a shot in real games. Hardy cares about winning actual NBA games and how players play in actual NBA games. That's my opinion anyway (only person who really knows what hardy thinks about summer league is hardy.)

I mean I guess you could say that rec league games matter and local gym games matter and church league games matter. Cause they do to those players and any basketball being played is reps and practice for those players but SL isn't going to determine playing time or roles for the real squad in the real games in any way at all.
 
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fishonjazz said:
So you do think that Collier is a good and willing passer then?
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Watch out. Saint claimed I was fabricating things (when he doesn't even know the difference between fabricating and speculation) and then literally fabricated that I hate Chinese people because I told him he took Hansen Yang pick 4 on his board. Dude's an absolute clown of a person.

He's about 100x worse than carolinaJazz (which I didn't know was possible).

He also posts 25 times a day for the last 15 years. Dude would blow up if he couldn't call people idiots or racist on a Utah Jazz forum for disagreeing with him or calling out his draft picks LOL
 
Shad said:
Watch out. Saint claimed I was fabricating things (when he doesn't even know the difference between fabricating and speculation) and then literally fabricated that I hate Chinese people because I told him he took Hansen Yang pick 4 on his board. Dude's an absolute clown of a person.

He's about 100x worse than carolinaJazz (which I didn't know was possible).

He also posts 25 times a day for the last 15 years. Dude would blow up if he couldn't call people idiots or racist on a Utah Jazz forum for disagreeing with him or calling out his draft picks LOL
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Go suck your Daddy Trump
 
Shad said:
Watch out. Saint claimed I was fabricating things (when he doesn't even know the difference between fabricating and speculation) and then literally fabricated that I hate Chinese people because I told him he took Hansen Yang pick 4 on his board. Dude's an absolute clown of a person.

He's about 100x worse than carolinaJazz (which I didn't know was possible).

He also posts 25 times a day for the last 15 years. Dude would blow up if he couldn't call people idiots or racist on a Utah Jazz forum for disagreeing with him or calling out his draft picks LOL
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He has gotten a lot better
 
The good news the org doesn't really have to "pick."

My guess is WCJ gets multiple shots on goal to grab the job. But if he sucks, and Collier doesn't, well there you go.

I just don't see it shaking out that way.
 
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